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[dragonslumber]

Full disclosure: I am a white male who has never really faced discrimination, and I am sure my opinions are colored accordingly. I'm actually looking for an minority developers to offer their points of view on the issue.

I feel like I hear a lot about the issues of diversity in the game development community, how characters are mostly males white, how there are so few women developers involved. And for the most part, it really does ring true, women and minorities seem vastly outnumbered by the white male demographic.

Now, there are two sides to this. First, we have big business, the Activisions and Ubisofts of the world, which have an idea of the image they want to project and right or wrong, move in that direction. But then there's the indie field, which is essencially a free for all for any willing to put the blood, sweat and tears into making a game. And even when it comes to that field, I feel like we don't really see many woman, or at least the games which are shown tend to be presented by the men. In fact, the only game where I know a woman was involved at a higher position is Gone Home, and even then there was also a man involved.

Now, I've talked about women, but minorities seem to be the same, there are few black people involved in design/management of indie companies or so it seems. Maybe it's because they don't get much press, maybe I'm just terribly misinformed, but that's really what I want to hear about. What games, bigger development games mind you (like a man/year or more of dev time), were created by women and minorities, and did being in those groups impact the development as far as external opportunities were concerned. And if there aren't many people, do you think it's an issue to be resolved?

[MorganRamsay]

The IGDA's 2014 Developer Satisfaction Survey Report states:

"In terms of race or ethnicity, the overwhelming majority identified as Caucasian at 79%.The next highest group identified as Hispanic/Latino (8.2%) followed by East/South-East Asian (7.5%); Africans and African Americans constituted 2.5% of respondents. This represents a slight overall increase in ethnic diversity since the 2005 Diversity Survey, whose respondents were 83.3% white, 7.5% Asian, 2.0% black, and 2.5% Hispanic/Latino."

These US-centric statistics are for game developers overall, so indie demographics would be derived from these results.

[Müsta Klaki]

Probably has something to do with most of the developers and the players being white males... you know...
common sense...

[SirNiko]

This seems to be going off track of the OP's suggested topic.

I found this by a quick google search:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/women2/2013/03/29/12-women-in-gaming-to-watch-entrepreneurs-edition/

Which includes some names and examples of female developers and mentions some games they work on. I also found this:

http://www.siliconsisters.ca/

Which bills itself as an all-female studio.

I would think that in other countries where US racial minorities are in the majority you would find studios that are minority white, but I'm not sure if there are likely to be any big studios like that. There are some racial minority developers here who might know a few big ones that have released quality titles.

I very much like the idea of identifying and promoting games by minority groups, as it would be an excellent resource for connecting minority gamers with studios that are likely to create games with characters they can identify with.

[ColeyWoley]

I've been a "woman in the games industry" since 1999. I've worked in small, medium and big studios.  For the most part its been a positive experience.  For the last 3 years, I've been making games with my husband and daughter full time.  If only one of us can attend a convention or meeting, I usually go.  Apart from initial surprise on behalf of people I'm meeting with, I don't think its affected us negatively, but its hard to say.

[gimymblert]

http://blerds.atlantablackstar.com/2014/09/16/5-african-americans-making-an-impact-in-the-video-game-industry/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Lawson_(engineer)

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muriel_Tramis

[s_l_m]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danielle_Bunten_Berry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberta_Williams
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dona_Bailey

[jamesprimate]

this is total anecdotal experience, but it certainly seems like female devs have a MUCH higher presence in indie and mobile games. Its crazy to go to E3, GDC, PAX (which span the extreme ranges of dev sausage-fests) and then something like BostonFIG, where I'd say 70% of games shown had at least 1 female developer on the team. (and all but one of the award winners this year were teams with female devs) Now that's still a minority for sure, as the rest of the teams could be 4-5 dudes, but the difference is HUGE between the representation there and at larger more "industry" events.

[Liza]

I've been in the games industry since 2008. You hear a lot about womens' bad experiences in games and I do not doubt that they are true - the discrimination is very real and these things happen. However, you hear less about womens' good experiences in the industry and I think it's largely because most of the women who have been lucky enough not to suffer discrimination, harassment, and/or abuse just want to keep on doing what they do and not get into the middle of these crapstorms. We're all here to make games; most of us just want to do that without being bothered.

In part I think it may also be because of different values and thresholds. I may not be insulted by a dumb penis joke being told in my vicinity (as long as it is not about me), but I know women who would consider it inappropriate. That's not to say that their feelings aren't valid, but they may flag something like that as an example of a "bad experience" (or in extreme cases even call it "harassment") whereas some others wouldn't categorize it as that at all.

There is much more attention on equality in games nowadays and it brings all kinds of things out of the woodwork: people speaking out about legitimate concerns and inappropriate experiences as well as people who may be more sensitive to behaviour that others wouldn't even consider to be a problem.

[rj]

Probably has something to do with most of the developers and the players being white males... you know...
common sense...

this is blatantly untrue

most people who play games are women. most developers aren't. that's -definitely- an issue

a big part of this problem is the classic one that's been true for decades in any tech/science related field: women don't get interested in programming or design because they are told constantly that these are simply not avenues open to them. it's not just directly telling them they can't do that, either, it's subtle social cues.

more visibility and more positive response to outspoken female game developers is necessary to help change this

[rj]

I've been in the games industry since 2008. You hear a lot about womens' bad experiences in games and I do not doubt that they are true - the discrimination is very real and these things happen. However, you hear less about womens' good experiences in the industry and I think it's largely because most of the women who have been lucky enough not to suffer discrimination, harassment, and/or abuse just want to keep on doing what they do and not get into the middle of these crapstorms. We're all here to make games; most of us just want to do that without being bothered.

In part I think it may also be because of different values and thresholds. I may not be insulted by a dumb penis joke being told in my vicinity (as long as it is not about me), but I know women who would consider it inappropriate. That's not to say that their feelings aren't valid, but they may flag something like that as an example of a "bad experience" (or in extreme cases even call it "harassment") whereas some others wouldn't categorize it as that at all.

There is much more attention on equality in games nowadays and it brings all kinds of things out of the woodwork: people speaking out about legitimate concerns and inappropriate experiences as well as people who may be more sensitive to behaviour that others wouldn't even consider to be a problem.

that behavior they're "sensitive" to is absolutely a legitimate concern, and claiming (or even just insinuating) it isn't just because you're more comfortable in this space shows a lack of regard for that?

women in general are "sensitive" to this behavior because when it happens it isn't as a simple result of camaraderie or joking around, even if you see it as that. the second you make a sexist joke, you're proving to the women working with you that you see them as women, very distinctly, not as equal. you're shoving what many people use to belittle them back in their face and saying "these are the most important things about you. this defines you. not your intellect, not your design prowess, but your body, your lips, your physical features and voice and everything about you that makes you different from me."

that is discrimination, like it or not. and in its subtlest, most seemingly harmless form, like here? that's when it's most insidious, because it seems invisible to everyone who isn't affected by it.

that obviously doesn't make you less "right" for being comfortable in a male-driven space, but i think it's important to consider that that's definitely not the usual thing, i think

[Nillo]

most people who play games are women. most developers aren't. that's -definitely- an issue

Do you have a source for that? The studies I've found seem to indicate that at least 50% of people who play video games are men. The gap is slowly decreasing but I think males are still the majority, at least in the "core" field of gaming (i.e. not including mobile and facebook games).

[Liza]

that behavior they're "sensitive" to is absolutely a legitimate concern, and claiming (or even just insinuating) it isn't just because you're more comfortable in this space shows a lack of regard for that?

And this is precisely one of the reasons women who are happy in the industry don't speak out more - as soon as we say something that may not fit in with the general consensus on what is and isn't appropriate we get claims that we're insinuating things that we aren't. Newsflash: some people are more comfortable with certain things than others. It doesn't make anybody's comfort level wrong or inappropriate (nor do I think I ever said this). Saying some people are more "sensitive" to some behaviour than others is not an insult, it's a fact.

women in general are "sensitive" to this behavior because when it happens it isn't as a simple result of camaraderie or joking around, even if you see it as that. the second you make a sexist joke, you're proving to the women working with you that you see them as women, very distinctly, not as equal.

Not sure why "penis joke" === "sexist joke" by default in your eyes.

I think you can kind of chill out a bit. As I said, discrimination in the industry is real. Nobody is denying that. Let's not jump down people's throats every time they express a thought you might not find favorable, hm?


But yes, Exhibit A - this is why you hear so much about negatives and not as much about women's positive experiences. We aren't that interested in getting attacked by people insisting we're victims.

[Schoq]

Black under-representation is I think, at least within the US, easily explained by the income disparity.



Becoming interested in programming I would say requires a certain level of having stuff as a kid. Stable home conditions help as well. Not to mention the state of public schools in poor neighbourhoods, and the cost of higher education.


The explanation for under-representation in player avatars in "hardcore" games seems to be some hopefully misguided marketing truism that most players are white racist males who don't want to play as anything other than their own physical ideal.

[rj]

most people who play games are women. most developers aren't. that's -definitely- an issue

Do you have a source for that? The studies I've found seem to indicate that at least 50% of people who play video games are men. The gap is slowly decreasing but I think males are still the majority, at least in the "core" field of gaming (i.e. not including mobile and facebook games).

i think honestly that excluding mobile is kind of silly in a day and age when games like threes, monument valley, device 6, and year walk frequently manage to be heavy indie hitters despite being "constrained" to a moble device

anyway, at least in the UK, most people who play games, period, are women. and if it's not the same in the US, then it's still -very close.- enough that the fact that representation among devs doesn't come close to approaching 50 percent is worrisome.

that behavior they're "sensitive" to is absolutely a legitimate concern, and claiming (or even just insinuating) it isn't just because you're more comfortable in this space shows a lack of regard for that?

And this is precisely one of the reasons women who are happy in the industry don't speak out more - as soon as we say something that may not fit in with the general consensus on what is and isn't appropriate we get claims that we're insinuating things that we aren't. Newsflash: some people are more comfortable with certain things than others. It doesn't make anybody's comfort level wrong or inappropriate (nor do I think I ever said this). Saying some people are more "sensitive" to some behaviour than others is not an insult, it's a fact.

see i agree with this 100% but i think that it's also kinda weird to put women who -are- sensitive at odds with women who aren't, as if that makes them wrong for feeling left out or marginalized for comments that other female devs might take in stride. it seemed like you were doing that? specifically here:

people speaking out about legitimate concerns and inappropriate experiences as well as people who may be more sensitive to behaviour that others wouldn't even consider to be a problem

sorry if it sounded like i was attacking you (definitely not the case) and i'm glad that you feel comfortable making games, but my point is that that comfort is not the case overall and it should be, really.

[Liza]

see i agree with this 100% but i think that it's also kinda weird to put women who -are- sensitive at odds with women who aren't, as if that makes them wrong for feeling left out or marginalized for comments that other female devs might take in stride. it seemed like you were doing that? specifically here:

people speaking out about legitimate concerns and inappropriate experiences as well as people who may be more sensitive to behaviour that others wouldn't even consider to be a problem

I understand your point, but we need to remember that women as a whole isn't "a thing". Because we're individuals, with our own thresholds for comfort levels and what we consider appropriate, it is impossible to always agree with each other on everything. Sometimes our opinions _will_ be at odds just like they are for everyone else.

To address the part of my post you quoted - I definitely didn't mean that having different comfort levels makes those other women wrong by default, or makes their feelings invalid or unimportant. We are each within our rights to disagree with another person's opinions; some things people complain about I find utterly ridiculous (and I'm not even talking about women in games here, but life in general). This doesn't mean their feelings are invalid, it just means you personally don't feel the same way.

sorry if it sounded like i was attacking you (definitely not the case) and i'm glad that you feel comfortable making games, but my point is that that comfort is not the case overall and it should be, really.

Thanks; I think a lot more women are comfortable than we will ever know, since people tend to talk about negative experiences more than positive ones. I'm not going to pretend to know the exact percentage of who's comfortable and who isn't, but clearly bad things do happen and we need to address them, so it's good that people are speaking out.

[Nillo]

i think honestly that excluding mobile is kind of silly in a day and age when games like threes, monument valley, device 6, and year walk frequently manage to be heavy indie hitters despite being "constrained" to a moble device

anyway, at least in the UK, most people who play games, period, are women. and if it's not the same in the US, then it's still -very close.- enough that the fact that representation among devs doesn't come close to approaching 50 percent is worrisome.

It should be noted that this study has a very loose definition of a person who plays video games: anyone who has played any form of video game in the last 6 months is considered to be a "person who plays games" here. I think this is quite different from what most people perceive as an active player of games. Personally, I would only consider someone to be a gamer if they play some form of game at least once per month.

And you're right, mobile and social network games are very successful today. However, grouping that type of player together with a heavier-investment player (someone who purchase a dedicated gaming device) results in a less useful statistic than if those audiences were considered in separate contexts, I think.

[Dragonmaw]

Shawn Allen (@aNuChallenger) and TJ Thomas (@TRONMAXIMUM) are important people to watch in games if you are into discussion of minority development.

[Colon Semicolon]

Half our team at Rasam Concept are middle eastern and one of our 3D artists is female. That shouldn't matter though. We're all working really hard because honestly we just want to make a fun and engaging game.

[jamesprimate]

pretty much every new article of research on the subject shows that women are the largest videogame buying demographic: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/female-adults-oust-teenage-boys-largest-gaming-demographic/

the only way to avoid that conclusion is to couch it in weird qualifiers saying "this is a REAL videogame, and this isnt a real videogame", which is the most arbitrary thing ive ever heard in my life. its identical to saying "only the things i like count."

mobile and social network games are very successful today. However, grouping that type of player together with a heavier-investment player (someone who purchase a dedicated gaming device) results in a less useful statistic than if those audiences were considered in separate contexts, I think.

wait, so now PC gaming "doesnt count" either? I havent purchased a "dedicated gaming device" since i was like 14, yet my laptop crushes anything current gen. similarly, my ipad can absolutely destroy any gen 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7 console hardware, yet it should be in separate contexts as a game device for... reasons? sorry to be aggro, but these are some tortured analogies homie.

even if you are just talking potential ROI, then mobile games DOMINATE. Kim Kardashian Hollywood does $200mil in one year with significantly less overhead than what you'd see for comparable sales on a console. If that's all that a company is going for then they'd be stupid not to take that route.

im not advocating any of that, just swatting flies. but its obvious that women make up a proportionate share of people playing games and its obvious that they are spending a large amount of money on those games. let an entrenched industry ignore this reality at their own peril.