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[Nillo]

wait, so now PC gaming "doesnt count" either? I havent purchased a "dedicated gaming device" since i was like 14. my ipad can absolutely destroy any gen 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7 console hardware, yet it "doesnt count" as a game device for... reasons? sorry to be aggro, but these are some tortured analogies homie.

I think a PC built for gaming is different enough from a regular PC to be considered a gaming device. You're right, though - it's not exactly "dedicated" in the sense that a gaming PC can run other things than games, and I apologize for the poor choice of words.

My point is that the market for video games is very different depending on the platform, so it doesn't make sense to group small apps for phones and CPU-intensive Steam games together if you want to figure out the demographics who are likely to purchase and play your video game.

And that study you linked compares the number of adult women to the number of teenage boys. That's not exactly a fair comparison, since it leaves out a big portion of both genders.

[Christian Knudsen]

I imagine what Nillo is trying to say (EDIT: And now just said...) is that if you want any useful statistics for a potential market size, counting people that have only played Windows Solitaire in the same market group as Dota players probably isn't very useful. Yes, they both play games, but the type of game, how they approach them and how much they take up their lives couldn't be more different.

Games aren't just games. Just because you like one type of games doesn't mean you'll like every other type. But that often seems to be the argument made. That women play games just as much as men, so if the more "hardcore" games were just more inclusive, women would be playing those as well. Now, I'm sure there are women that don't like these games because they aren't more inclusive, but I'm equally sure that there are just as many that simply aren't interested in these types of game. So it can come off as disingenious when these statistics are thrown around to support an argument (on either side). 90% of all statistics are useless.

[jamesprimate]

oh i understand what hes saying, but thats not enough to explain away the reality of women as a huge gaming demographic. whats the difference between someone who spends $200 on Team Fortress hats or LoL skins and someone who spends $200 on Kim Kardashian Hollywood? nothing. at. all. they are both idiots.

[gimymblert]

By that logic, further fragmentation is needed, like for example platform and genre of games break down.

For example tales game have 80% male player, but the 20% of woman is way more active and invested as seen in convention and spend way more on the game. Should you alienate that 20% because male gamer are the majority? Looking at number is also a way to alienate your market, cutting down the minority is effectively cutting potential growth.

[Christian Knudsen]

oh i understand what hes saying, but thats not enough to explain away the reality of women as a huge gaming demographic. whats the difference between someone who spends $200 on Team Fortress hats or LoL skins and someone who spends $200 on Kim Kardashian Hollywood? nothing. at. all. they are both idiots.

Sure, but they're very different games. It would probably be just as hard to get the LoL player to spend $200 on the Kim Kardashian game as getting the Kim Kardashian player to spend $200 on LoL.

And if anybody is trying to explain away women as a huge gaming demographic, that's dumb. But, correct me if I'm wrong, the big discussion everywhere doesn't seem to be about non-inclusiveness in Facebook games and other more casual games. It's about the "hardcore" games and the toxic environment presented by these so-called "gamers". And when these statistics get brought up in that context, it seems to be in an effort to present this huge women player demographic as untapped potential, when for the most part, they aren't untapped. They're not just being tapped into via "hardcore" games.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying developers shouldn't try to make their games more inclusive or stop being outright sexist, I'm just saying that I don't believe that you'd see a substantial migration of women players to more "hardcore" games in a potential scenario where all of this happened. That's why I feel bringing up these statistics often comes off as disingenious. And developers shouldn't do this because of statistics, they should do it not to be asses. The same goes for these so-called "gamers".

[s0]

wait, so now PC gaming "doesnt count" either? I havent purchased a "dedicated gaming device" since i was like 14. my ipad can absolutely destroy any gen 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, & 7 console hardware, yet it "doesnt count" as a game device for... reasons? sorry to be aggro, but these are some tortured analogies homie.

I think a PC built for gaming is different enough from a regular PC to be considered a gaming device. You're right, though - it's not exactly "dedicated" in the sense that a gaming PC can run other things than games, and I apologize for the poor choice of words.

i mainly play games on PC and have literally never built a PC in my life. my current "gaming PC" is a freaking macbook pro(!!) and it runs most modern games well enough.

[jamesprimate]

the topic is about female and minority developers, and the reason for this particular derail is that there is a disturbing lack of female devs for an industry in which, by all accounts, women account for a dominant buying demographic. the hardcore vs whatever argument is completely unrelated, and dumb. the point is just that we cant do the "b-b-but women dont like games" thing any more. its transparently false.

[Christian Knudsen]

the topic is about female and minority developers, and the reason for this particular derail is that there is a disturbing lack of female devs for an industry in which, by all accounts, women account for a dominant buying demographic. the hardcore vs whatever argument is completely unrelated, and dumb. the point is just that we cant do the "b-b-but women dont like games" thing any more. its transparently false.

Sorry, I think I've spilled over into the sexism, gamergate, whatever discussion going on everywhere else (which is very much about "hardcore" gaming and "gamers") and not the more general discussion of women representation in the industry. Which are still aspects of the same discussion, though.

[BarchKing]

"THE BARCH'S GUIDE TO HOW HE DESTROYED PATRIACHY AND HOW HE MENTIONS PAUL ERES THREE TIMES"

Well I think in my experience: programming its not something that is often presented to women/minorities at early ages.

For example (the barch makes a sociological peer reviewed list from pure indie data) to be here @ 'tigsource' or to grow the child that wanders in you would make so...

THE BARCHES GUIDE TO GROWING A INDIE CHILD BABE

step 1 - grow up with parents able to afford computer from 1980 -> onwards
step 2 - be part of European(mostly northern western)/Australian/American part of the world
step 3 - have parents that support your dreams or choices
step 4 - add suger, flour eggs and place in a non stick pan
step 5 - have one parent have some basic understanding of code
step 6 - be introduced to a development/game community at a young/teenage years
step 7 - have friends that nurture through community or real life style or philosophy
step 8 - love of games and idea that you can design them

heres one I made earlier



those are the usuall sterotypical enviromenst that foster a person that gets into gamedev, this themes are common. And you will find that most of the members here fit into this category. Also if you miss out on some your likely to miss out on the scene.

For example while my sister was taught programming and designed games herself she didnt find a developement community she missed out on indie scene entirely. but because I found the GameMakerGames site you have the prince of poets speaking to you' here.

I remember when I was studying design and I told her that I made games; she freaked out, no my friends she did not say to me that I am a nerd or even state that I unsuitable suitor amongst her dating pool (for even barchkings can get ladyfriends after stating that he makes barchgames). Instead simply She begged me to teach her how to program, and I indulged her. After I taught how to do a basic game where you play as Tony abbot dodging Julia Gillard - she was hooked and switch majors from design to programming. She didnt mind the lack of representation, nor knew the infamous Anita. I removed the barrier and allowed her to be the saxon swordmaker.

and as a result she is becoming a game designer because for the first time in her life someone removed her programming barrier.

Now I'll use this story to explain a concept that I think we have forgotten my friends.

There's a mystery that prevents not only minority's from entering but also the average man and women. To us anyone can program, from paul eres to derek yus unborn child from yon womb. but to the outside world, outside the nice din of tigsource. Programming has a mystique to it that only mysterious people have access to if you are coming from an outside perspective. Mysterious people who cast strange lines of code and thus machines to their bidding - computer whiz is the correct term - we are like saxon weaponsmiths who were regarded part weaponcraftsman and part-shaman who turned rocks into tools, and you should be rolling your eyes at that comparision ('we're rolling our eyes at your writing style barch" - tigsource). - shoosh tigsource, if we are going to have debates at least make them interesting; I expect evajolli's responses to be in the style of 17 century french poetry for now on.


You guys should know what I mean. Its not magic; its logic, and time and learning its easy. and they dont know that,

they may want to enter but they dont know how, they dont know the communitys, the networks - how to find the mentors. How to ask paul advice on how to get dialogue to wrap strings in a box so the words don't do that weird thing.
breaking newsbreaking newsbreaking newsbreaking newsbreaking news

AH A LETTER FROM ANNA ANTHROPY; how kind of you to write to me

So Mr barch - your back and writing more then ever; what should we do? You seem to know alot about the problems but what of the solutions? - love not anna anthropy but actually tigsource in disguise- got tricked

how rude of you tigsource but alas i shall answer

I reckon start teaching game design from a non-indie stand view. While I enjoy chevy rays scaling tutorials miss sarah who wants to know how to add an object doesnt find that useful when she doesnt know what a variable is. From teaching one another from a standpoint of that you understand basic programming you paradoxity alienate those dont from starting.

While it may be tricky for Gimym JIMBERT to finish his 16century inspired mannerist works aka sonic fangame; he can teach children the boys and girls the exquisite basics of c++. Already schools are teaching python/construct/gm:s/flash as manditory classes so I think it would be interesting to see what groups come out of that. Anna anthropys done some cool stuff working with prisons and schools. Teach classes, volunteer, when there is someone who reaches out that can make all the difference.

Helping getting people over the mystery and starting the journey is how we start people. its how we get more people instead of only those who come out of the barchs cooking list of indie.

[Sik]

most people who play games are women. most developers aren't. that's -definitely- an issue

Do you have a source for that? The studies I've found seem to indicate that at least 50% of people who play video games are men. The gap is slowly decreasing but I think males are still the majority, at least in the "core" field of gaming (i.e. not including mobile and facebook games).

If I recall correctly the ratio is about the same as that of the population divide (i.e. 49% vs 51%), so not bad in that sense. The problem is that women are playing mostly casual games so nobody takes it into account (and I assume the reason that happens is because with casual games you can't afford to alienate anybody or you will flop really quickly).

[Nillo]

If I recall correctly the ratio is about the same as that of the population divide (i.e. 49% vs 51%), so not bad in that sense. The problem is that women are playing mostly casual games so nobody takes it into account (and I assume the reason that happens is because with casual games you can't afford to alienate anybody or you will flop really quickly).

When you put it like that, it makes me curious what the most loathsome match-3 game in the world could be. The casual game with no audience whatsoever.

Tom Vasel once reviewed a board game called Oneupmanship, which says right there in the rulebook that it is not a game for "pinkos, pikers, posers, pantywaists, do-gooders, geektards or vegans". It was so quick and efficient about alienating its audience, I was actually impressed.

[rj]

"THE BARCH'S GUIDE TO HOW HE DESTROYED PATRIACHY AND HOW HE MENTIONS PAUL ERES THREE TIMES"

Well I think in my experience: programming its not something that is often presented to women/minorities at early ages.

For example (the barch makes a sociological peer reviewed list from pure indie data) to be here @ 'tigsource' or to grow the child that wanders in you would make so...

THE BARCHES GUIDE TO GROWING A INDIE CHILD BABE

step 1 - grow up with parents able to afford computer from 1980 -> onwards
step 2 - be part of European(mostly northern western)/Australian/American part of the world
step 3 - have parents that support your dreams or choices
step 4 - add suger, flour eggs and place in a non stick pan
step 5 - have one parent have some basic understanding of code
step 6 - be introduced to a development/game community at a young/teenage years
step 7 - have friends that nurture through community or real life style or philosophy
step 8 - love of games and idea that you can design them

heres one I made earlier



those are the usuall sterotypical enviromenst that foster a person that gets into gamedev, this themes are common. And you will find that most of the members here fit into this category. Also if you miss out on some your likely to miss out on the scene.

For example while my sister was taught programming and designed games herself she didnt find a developement community she missed out on indie scene entirely. but because I found the GameMakerGames site you have the prince of poets speaking to you' here.

I remember when I was studying design and I told her that I made games; she freaked out, no my friends she did not say to me that I am a nerd or even state that I unsuitable suitor amongst her dating pool (for even barchkings can get ladyfriends after stating that he makes barchgames). Instead simply She begged me to teach her how to program, and I indulged her. After I taught how to do a basic game where you play as Tony abbot dodging Julia Gillard - she was hooked and switch majors from design to programming. She didnt mind the lack of representation, nor knew the infamous Anita. I removed the barrier and allowed her to be the saxon swordmaker.

and as a result she is becoming a game designer because for the first time in her life someone removed her programming barrier.

Now I'll use this story to explain a concept that I think we have forgotten my friends.

There's a mystery that prevents not only minority's from entering but also the average man and women. To us anyone can program, from paul eres to derek yus unborn child from yon womb. but to the outside world, outside the nice din of tigsource. Programming has a mystique to it that only mysterious people have access to if you are coming from an outside perspective. Mysterious people who cast strange lines of code and thus machines to their bidding - computer whiz is the correct term - we are like saxon weaponsmiths who were regarded part weaponcraftsman and part-shaman who turned rocks into tools, and you should be rolling your eyes at that comparision ('we're rolling our eyes at your writing style barch" - tigsource). - shoosh tigsource, if we are going to have debates at least make them interesting; I expect evajolli's responses to be in the style of 17 century french poetry for now on.


You guys should know what I mean. Its not magic; its logic, and time and learning its easy. and they dont know that,

they may want to enter but they dont know how, they dont know the communitys, the networks - how to find the mentors. How to ask paul advice on how to get dialogue to wrap strings in a box so the words don't do that weird thing.
breaking newsbreaking newsbreaking newsbreaking newsbreaking news

AH A LETTER FROM ANNA ANTHROPY; how kind of you to write to me

So Mr barch - your back and writing more then ever; what should we do? You seem to know alot about the problems but what of the solutions? - love not anna anthropy but actually tigsource in disguise- got tricked

how rude of you tigsource but alas i shall answer

I reckon start teaching game design from a non-indie stand view. While I enjoy chevy rays scaling tutorials miss sarah who wants to know how to add an object doesnt find that useful when she doesnt know what a variable is. From teaching one another from a standpoint of that you understand basic programming you paradoxity alienate those dont from starting.

While it may be tricky for Gimym JIMBERT to finish his 16century inspired mannerist works aka sonic fangame; he can teach children the boys and girls the exquisite basics of c++. Already schools are teaching python/construct/gm:s/flash as manditory classes so I think it would be interesting to see what groups come out of that. Anna anthropys done some cool stuff working with prisons and schools. Teach classes, volunteer, when there is someone who reaches out that can make all the difference.

Helping getting people over the mystery and starting the journey is how we start people. its how we get more people instead of only those who come out of the barchs cooking list of indie.

this is the best post i've ever seen in my month at tigsource (also all of it is true)

[gimymblert]

this is the best post i've ever seen in my month at tigsource (also all of it is true)

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=1700.0

[Blambo]

BARCHE

this is the best post i've ever seen in my month at tigsource (also all of it is true)

yeah it's hard to emotionally extricate hostility of the industry and hostility of the medium. being an artist isnt gender/race linked but being a public one in the industry is, and sometimes that gets conflated and people are discouraged. baaaad

[gimymblert]

http://blackgirlnerds.com/

[gimymblert]

[MorganRamsay]

the topic is about female and minority developers, and the reason for this particular derail is that there is a disturbing lack of female devs for an industry in which, by all accounts, women account for a dominant buying demographic. the hardcore vs whatever argument is completely unrelated, and dumb. the point is just that we cant do the "b-b-but women dont like games" thing any more. its transparently false.

Sorry, I think I've spilled over into the sexism, gamergate, whatever discussion going on everywhere else (which is very much about "hardcore" gaming and "gamers") and not the more general discussion of women representation in the industry. Which are still aspects of the same discussion, though.

Whenever the phrase "women and minorities" is used, minorities always lose out to women in the following discussion. Since that's the case here, too...

2012 Congressional Joint Economic Committee's STEM Report
Only 14 percent of engineers are women, as are just 27 percent of individuals working in computer science and math positions.

2014 IGDA Developer Satisfaction Survey Report
76% of respondents [game developers] identified their gender as male, with 22% identifying as female.

[gimymblert]

Also the "white" women are favor by "minority" women because it's minority women that bring the data down too, making a case that benefit white women.


http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/ElizabethSampat/20140722/221635/The_Story_These_Stories_Arent_Telling.php

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

How to say "I think women need more access to mentors" in 909 words (or, 5062 characters)

[gimymblert]