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TwistedJenius
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« on: September 22, 2014, 10:02:31 PM »




Note: This is a blog post I just wrote that I thought others might find interesting here.

End of Steam Greenlight?

It has been over a year since Gabe Newell, the founder of Valve, first began expressing his desire to phase out the Steam Greenlight system, and now it might be happening.

At the time of this writing, the latest batch of games to be Greenlit was on August 1; 53 days ago, and only consisted of a total of 50 games.  This is in contrast to several consecutive batches of 75 games which had been being Greenlit, a few times a month.

At least 100 games where Greenlit during each month, from December 2013 to June 2014. And yet since July 12, only those 50 games have been allowed through Greenlight.  This sharp decline in games being allowed through that system could imply that the Greenlight method of allowing games onto the Steam distribution service, may finally be over. 

This seems to be even more likely as today Steam launched its Discovery Update, providing new features for the service that would seem to be designed to help users to better navigate its large numbers of game titles.  The reason that this would seem to indicate the death of the Greenlight system, is that the replacement for Greenlight (which essentially lets users vote on which games they would like to see on the Steam platform) might very well be no significant barriers to entry to Steam at all. 

Based on things that Newell and others have said previously, it would seem that Valve has been leaning increasingly towards opening up access to Steam to as many games as possible.  But with such an influx of new games and no real "gatekeeper", there will predictably be a massive sea of inferior products flooding Steam.  And so we can surmise that many of the changes introduced in this latest Discovery Update are being implemented in order to help the cream rise to the surface, and to assist users in finding the types of games that they want. 

Without such measures, users of the Steam service would be completely overwhelmed by the massive influx of games of all varying types of quality that would inevitably end up on the site.  But the question is will these measures actually work and will these changes be sufficient enough to allow users to effectively navigate the massive swell of new games on the platform?  Steam users already complained earlier this year about the increased number of games being Greenlit, and so it will be interesting to see what happens if Valve completely opens the floodgates to any and all games that might want to be on the platform. 

While these recent events, and their possible outcomes should be of definite concern to Steam users, as an indie developer, I have some concerns of my own.  Steam is by far the largest distribution platform for PC games and that's much of its value.  But what happens to the value of getting on Steam if it becomes completely saturated with so many different titles that users cannot properly navigate it to find the quality games that they're looking for?  The more games that get on the platform, the more difficult it is to be successful on it and at a certain point of mass saturation, the platform itself becomes increasingly worthless to an indie dev.  As it is, Steam has become much more competitive than it once was and it is more difficult to make money on there than it was a year ago. 

But more problematic is the fact that there is no real alternative.  Although just getting on Steam is no guarantee of success, being on Steam is still almost necessary for any type of success; there really is no substitute for it.  And if the value of being on that platform decreases, there really isn't another good alternative.  As someone who is planning on releasing their next game within the next year (that would be Reptile Zoo: The Sinister Mutation), this is something that I'm personally concerned about. 

Of course despite the fact that nothing has been Greenlit in over a month, Greenlight has not been officially discontinued yet and therefore much of this is just speculation.  Both users and developers will still have to wait and see what Valve has planned, exactly.  But it is apparent that something is in the works. 

With the new " Curators " feature included with this latest update, it is hard to predict exactly what will happen.  It will be interesting to see how this will affect things and which collections will gain popularity.  I suspect that the Curators feature may even give rise to some new stars in this sphere of gaming popularity.  Whether that and other features which were introduced in this new Discovery Update will sufficiently help users to filter through the platform's extensive list of games, has yet to be seen. Much of this would seem to be somewhat experimental.

All I can say is that both from a user and developer standpoint, I sincerely hope that Valve knows what they're doing. 
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rj
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« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2014, 11:06:01 PM »

honestly it's better this way if it happens
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bombjack
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2014, 11:28:09 PM »

I'm maybe throwing a stone in the water but isn't it time to develop a steam alternative by the community for the community ?

I know the 'failure' of desura but times are changing? no?
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Eigen
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« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2014, 12:31:04 AM »

I'm maybe throwing a stone in the water but isn't it time to develop a steam alternative by the community for the community ?

Sure, but eventually you'll reach oversaturation of games and then you're stuck with the good old discovery problem yet again. How would you prevent that?
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bombjack
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« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2014, 01:36:41 AM »

I'm maybe throwing a stone in the water but isn't it time to develop a steam alternative by the community for the community ?

Sure, but eventually you'll reach oversaturation of games and then you're stuck with the good old discovery problem yet again. How would you prevent that?

I think the issue is mainly the saturation with poor quality games.
Could oversaturation of good quality games really happen ?
Maybe having a rating system with 'priviledge' user (eg: renowned developers/youtubers) having more important votes?
Or a rating system based on reviews ...  there are many option to think of.
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« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2014, 01:53:10 AM »

Maybe they don't want to close Greenlight but just improve the quality of the games on the Steam platform by allowing less games to enter...
Anyway, I will put my game on Greenlight shortly  Smiley
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« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2014, 02:31:09 AM »

Maybe having a rating system with 'priviledge' user (eg: renowned developers/youtubers) having more important votes?

This is what the curators are supposed to handle, except that anyone can become a curator and it is up to the users to follow the curators they believe promote quality games. Since, you know, everyone has different taste and one person's garbage is another's treasure.
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« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2014, 04:13:52 AM »

itchy ow is basically the bandcamp of game
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knifeySpoonie
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« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2014, 05:40:55 AM »

Personally, I love steam for being more than just a store front... Sure it would be great to have more competition, but it has to be simillar quality and offer simillar features like steamworks does.... Which no one currently does.

The Curators Idea sounds Interesting, it will certainly help get good games known... Although it does lead to the issues of a few famous "curators" becoming gatekeepers if they become too powerful, which Im not sure I like the idea of.

I love the Idea of crafting my own homepage, I want to see new games and I want to see Indie games, If I can get this to be the case... then I'll be happy.. I will be eagerly trying out the new features and maybe setting up a curation account as well.
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« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2014, 05:59:35 AM »

Maybe having a rating system with 'priviledge' user (eg: renowned developers/youtubers) having more important votes?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHA
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qwurp
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« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2014, 08:05:01 AM »

I'm sure any changes to the submission process will be in stages. Adding curators is definitely "phase 1" to bigger changes. But, I don't see them flipping a switch that closes the doors to Greenlight and instantaneous access to Storefronts for all users. They know their users drive to troll (e.g. Greenlight launch, Curator launch etc) would mean a million fake/troll games appear... So I see some sort of phased launch approach.

I think the idea behind Greenlight is good, I've had two titles Greenlit and generally like the idea of the audience curating titles. I almost see GL becoming some sort of curator itself. Some relatively open storefront and games that are popular on Greenlight/Concepts etc get additional visibility from the "crowd" as a Curator.

Could be wrong, could be a switch flip to open storefront. But I'd like to see some sort of hybrid approach.

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Eigen
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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2014, 08:21:51 AM »

I think the issue is mainly the saturation with poor quality games.

I agree. I feel we need to be more critical of sub-par games and discourage putting those on sale. In my mind the problem is that everyone has this game that has no distinguishable features and often clearly looks like their first project based on a tutorial, yet they expect big things of it partly due to encouragement of fellow developers. Greenlight is filled with such games and I think it hurts everybody. It lowers the overall perception of the quality of the service and makes it hard for even great games to stand out.

This is radical, but not everyone can and should make games. If something is okay and that's about it, then that's it. Learn and move on to create better games or don't but don't expect anything from it and don't shove it to every outlet/service available.
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bombjack
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2014, 10:01:00 AM »

@bombjack: Do you know itch.io? Perhaps it gets bigger and more known over the coming years? I hope...

IMHO, itch.io is a great initiative but it's even harder to find games with it than steam.
The problem is very difficult. On one hand it's great to allow anyone to publish a game and on the other hand there are so many 'craps' that it's sometimes hard to find good games.
As an example, the play store is so crowded that it becomes hard to find the game you're looking for, even if you know it's name. Just because there are hundreds of games with a similar name.

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TwistedJenius
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« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2014, 10:43:58 AM »

The Curators Idea sounds Interesting, it will certainly help get good games known... Although it does lead to the issues of a few famous "curators" becoming gatekeepers if they become too powerful, which Im not sure I like the idea of.

This is almost certainly going to happen to some extent, though whether they'll become too powerful (to an unacceptable level), will have to be seen.  There may be some interesting surprises in this respect and a few previously unknown individuals might come out as "stars" in their own right just from being good curators (as opposed to the more predictable outcome of already popular people and organizations just being popular there as well).  It looks as though TotalBiscuit is still the top curator so far, but that could very well change at any time (for instance if pewdiepie becomes a curator, he will almost instantly get knocked down).
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2014, 10:53:35 AM »

The Curators Idea sounds Interesting, it will certainly help get good games known... Although it does lead to the issues of a few famous "curators" becoming gatekeepers if they become too powerful, which Im not sure I like the idea of.

This is almost certainly going to happen to some extent, though whether they'll become too powerful (to an unacceptable level), will have to be seen

this is hysterically silly
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TwistedJenius
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2014, 10:55:27 AM »

I'm sure any changes to the submission process will be in stages. Adding curators is definitely "phase 1" to bigger changes. But, I don't see them flipping a switch that closes the doors to Greenlight and instantaneous access to Storefronts for all users. They know their users drive to troll (e.g. Greenlight launch, Curator launch etc) would mean a million fake/troll games appear... So I see some sort of phased launch approach.

I would hope that you're right about this and that Steam would be smarter than to just do the " flip a switch" approach that you described. It should come in phases. I just find it slightly worrisome simply because we know the changes are being made but we don't really know what they are yet. Ultimately we have no choice but to wait and see. I would assume that they would be careful about this and realizes some obvious problems with simply opening their storefronts like that.

This newest update would seem to imply that they are at least preparing to try to deal with whenever is coming and that they have a long-term plan, which is a good sign. In all likelihood I think they would at least keep the same fee that it took to get on Greenlight, and while that would be a small barrier to entry, it still wouldn't stop a huge influx of games getting on Steam and so I think they'll need to do something even better than that.
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Here's the DevLog of the game I'm currently working on- Reptile Zoo: The Sinister Mutation
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TwistedJenius
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2014, 10:57:20 AM »

The Curators Idea sounds Interesting, it will certainly help get good games known... Although it does lead to the issues of a few famous "curators" becoming gatekeepers if they become too powerful, which Im not sure I like the idea of.

This is almost certainly going to happen to some extent, though whether they'll become too powerful (to an unacceptable level), will have to be seen

this is hysterically silly

Perhaps a better word would be too "influential".
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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2014, 11:04:46 AM »

I feel we need to be more critical of sub-par games and discourage putting those on sale. In my mind the problem is that everyone has this game that has no distinguishable features and often clearly looks like their first project based on a tutorial, yet they expect big things of it partly due to encouragement of fellow developers. Greenlight is filled with such games and I think it hurts everybody. It lowers the overall perception of the quality of the service and makes it hard for even great games to stand out.

This is radical, but not everyone can and should make games. If something is okay and that's about it, then that's it. Learn and move on to create better games or don't but don't expect anything from it and don't shove it to every outlet/service available.

Don't be offended by this but I basically disagree with literally everything you just said. But take it with a grain of salt cause it's just my opinion (just like your opinion above). I'm just.... so confused.

Sales are quite good regardless of whats on GL (in fact sales are in record numbers since launch) and games from unknown developers consistently hit top sales spots (have you looked at the best seller today?). Yes, we all saw "Life is Feudal" storming to #1 on the charts this week right? I'd love to see data supporting your "makes it hard for even great games to stand out". Just curious, which "great games" haven't sold well on Steam? Seriously. Tell me. I'd also love to hear some sales data on how Greenlight is "hurting everybody". Hurting how? Financially? Please clarify and show me where its hurting developers?

And suggesting that we should discourage or be critical of other games we deem "not good enough" is surely a joke? The great thing about indie game development is that anyone can get started and no one's vision is stifled. You create what you want to play. And who exactly is defining whats "good enough to be sold"? You? Some other curator or publisher? Back to square 1? Basically the openness of the indie development scene that has made it so successful in the last few years is exactly what you want to get rid of. Which would be a death-blow to the indie scene and that actually WOULD hurt everyone.

If you're worried some other little, cheap, crappy game is going to somehow steal sales from your game and "hurt you", you're not looking at this right.

[/end rant]
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« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2014, 11:09:27 AM »

I think a big part of having your game sell on steam is when you buy a game, it shows it on your activity log for all of your friends to see. You buy a game, 50 people see it, then 3 of them buy it, then 150 people see it, 10 of them buy it, 500 people see that etc etc... ESPECIALLY true during sales. If I look on my activity stream and see like 3 of my friends bought a single game, I'll definitely check it out. DOUBLE ESPECIALLY TRUE for multiplayer games. If I see a bunch of my friends buy a cool mutliplayer game, I'll jump on the bandwagon and buy it so I can play with them.

I've bought a lot of games because of this, so I don't think the over-saturation of Greenlight is that big of a deal, but some of the worst games I have EVER seen were on Greenlight. I once saw a Dating-Sim with Deviantart graphics (aka terrible anime drawn by a 16 year old girl), where you would date guys. Except they weren't guys because they went into this like sex change machine and became girls so you know it's totally not gay hahahaha nope Big Laff
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Eigen
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« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2014, 11:43:50 AM »

@qwurp

I'm tired, so maybe I'm a little grumpy. Everyone can make all the games they want, sure, but if you lack self criticism (that's the main problem I'm getting at) and put your first mediocre product on sale then I think that's a problem. It's not a problem if one person does it but when everydone does it. I can't give you any concrete examples because I haven't looked for those. I'm just saying what I think. Yes, it may be wrong but it's the impression I've gotten.

That's why it's gotten so dang difficult to put anything on the App Store for example. Unless you get lucky or have a large ad budget you'll get drowned in thousands of other games released that day, most of which are sub-par.

And of course, yes, we need to be more critical, no doubt about it. I'll take a constructive critical comment tearning my work to pieces over a simple praise any day, in fact I'd encourage that. I can take those pieces, improve upon them and put them back together resulting in something that's a notch better that it was. Great! It is important to be proud of your work but it's as important to be honest about it.

I'm mainly getting at the excessive cloning on the mobile market, with all those Flappy clones for example, where developers seem to wholeheartedly believe they have made something awesome. No desire to innovate. Only to be as someone else at best.

All said, heck, what do I know. Maybe I'm just a grouch.
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