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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignMissions/Quests in an Open World Platformer
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Archendrus
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« on: October 04, 2014, 01:42:50 PM »

Hi everyone! I have a game idea that I've been tossing around for awhile, trying to vet out the details to see if the scope is feasible and, to decide if it would be any fun of course.  The quick description would be something like Flashback combined with Shadowrun for the Sega Genesis.

The long description: A cinematic platformer in an open world cyberpunk setting, where the player can explore and take on jobs/mission to earn money, buy items and gear, and advance the plot. I would like to have a "hacking" mechanic similar to shadowrun, where the player actually enters a physical space. This would accomplish unlocking doors/elevators in the platformer sections, stealing "data" for a mission objective or to sell. I thought it would be fun to implement these sections as a first person dungeon crawler with small, one floor levels.

So, as you can see, I already have a pretty big scope. With the open/world mission based gameplay, I would have repeating missions, so I'm struggling with how to keep the game fresh with only a handful of mission areas. Would it be boring to revisit, say a corporate office building area several times even if the mission objective was different? Anyone have any ideas on how to keep things fresh and still limit the scope? I don't think I want to go down the procedural generation route.
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Lycaon
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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2014, 02:44:23 PM »

Well, procedural generation would be a good way (I'd argue the best way, but I have a hard-on for procedural generation) to do this, but there are other solutions.

Metroidvania-style games have to deal with this issue a lot - how do you make backtracking over areas you've already been to entertaining/engaging?

I think a big key is making it so that after the first time you go there, it becomes much easier to get through. Notice how as you level up in Castlevania: SOTN, the earlier areas that you might have to walk through a bunch of times get really easy. I'd play through the post-SOTN Castlevania games, various Metroid games, and also perhaps Dark Souls to see how they make going back to places you've already been fun, or, at least, not a chore.
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ThemsAllTook
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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2014, 03:14:46 PM »

So, as you can see, I already have a pretty big scope. With the open/world mission based gameplay, I would have repeating missions, so I'm struggling with how to keep the game fresh with only a handful of mission areas. Would it be boring to revisit, say a corporate office building area several times even if the mission objective was different? Anyone have any ideas on how to keep things fresh and still limit the scope? I don't think I want to go down the procedural generation route.

Super Mario Sunshine comes to mind. You're revisiting the same area multiple times to collect all the shines, but depending on which shine you're going for, the environment is set up slightly differently. Doors that were closed are now open, NPCs are in different places doing different things, etc. I didn't find it boring at all.
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baconman
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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2014, 11:09:50 PM »

Well, what kinds of missions can you associate with platformer gameplay?

-Kill the boss/invader
-Collect 100 coins
-Collect 5/8/10 of a special trinket
-Speedrun that bitch/race a rival!
-Kill at least 20 somethings
-AVOID collecting coins, killing something, stepping on something?

...just think about ways to make the player rethink their entire approach to the area, really.
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Moth
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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2014, 04:52:32 AM »

I don't think the same environment gets old over the course of missions if you change it accordingly. If it's the same every time and you're tracing practically the same route then it could get monotonous, but just take a look at how the mario 3d platformers change the context of your level playthroughs based on the mission you pick, and what changes within the level.

Not a whole lot needs to change for every mission, but it shouldn't be too hard to know what you want to do with each one and change enemy layouts, etc. to work towards the style of gameplay you want the mission to have. Maybe one is more "stealth" with sentry guards and turret cameras, maybe one is beat-em-'up style full of easy to kill grunt enemies, and maybe one is almost devoid of enemies except for a few really big bruisers that are tough to take down.

If there are different ways players can tackle the missions (different routes through the area and multiple valid approaches to circumventing or defeating the challenges), that's great.
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Archendrus
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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2014, 06:31:17 AM »

Some great ideas here! Thanks everyone!
I think I now have some good ideas regarding reusing/revisiting maps.
- Limit the chore of backtracking.
- An entire map doesn't have to be used for every mission. New areas could be unlocked by
  the mission itself, or new abilities.
- Areas of the map that ARE reused could be set up differently with placement of enemies,
  NPCs, etc.
- Varying the types of missions can change the gameplay significantly, allowing a the same map
  to be played many different ways.

I'm pretty familiar with Metroidvania games, so some some of these points should've been obvious to me.
My game idea is a little more modular though (safe hub area, dangerous mission areas), so I couldn't put together how it would work that way. I thought it would be like if there was an NPC in Metroid that repeatedly sent you to Norfair. It would get tedious after the first few times.  I think I now have some great ideas to keep things fresh.
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baconman
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« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2014, 06:40:33 PM »

Developer perspective is a little different, removed from player perspective, until you have a prototype going. It's astounding how much design you'll forget just getting the basic stuff in place, but then you'll recall later, and then... "CRAP!! Why didn't I make #$!@# more systematic, like this?"
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wccrawford
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« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2014, 08:53:17 AM »

I actually disliked that Mario changed things if you said you were going for a different star.  I always felt like it should be the same level exactly, except that you take a different path, using existing things slightly differently, to get there.

Having said that, my dislike of that aspect was rather mild and it didn't stop me from enjoying the game.

As a side note, I'm a big fan of having multiple ways to traverse an area, depending on what tools or skills you use.  This also leads to replayability.
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Archendrus
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« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2014, 04:57:06 PM »

Developer perspective is a little different, removed from player perspective, until you have a prototype going. It's astounding how much design you'll forget just getting the basic stuff in place, but then you'll recall later, and then... "CRAP!! Why didn't I make #$!@# more systematic, like this?"

That's the truth!  I forgot I could apply designs I had seen a million times before because the way I had envisioned the idea didn't fit nicely into those examples, or so I thought!

I actually disliked that Mario changed things if you said you were going for a different star.  I always felt like it should be the same level exactly, except that you take a different path, using existing things slightly differently, to get there.

Having said that, my dislike of that aspect was rather mild and it didn't stop me from enjoying the game.

As a side note, I'm a big fan of having multiple ways to traverse an area, depending on what tools or skills you use.  This also leads to replayability.

I would like to have multiple paths on some maps. I was toying with the idea of having an RPG like character growth.  Put more points into hacking and you can bypass the more combat oriented path, or something along those lines. I feel like that could get really complicated though so I might scale it back. I think I'll at least experiment with it.

Really excited to start designing this! Thanks everyone!
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valrus
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« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2014, 09:03:24 PM »

I actually disliked that Mario changed things if you said you were going for a different star.  I always felt like it should be the same level exactly, except that you take a different path, using existing things slightly differently, to get there.

Having said that, my dislike of that aspect was rather mild and it didn't stop me from enjoying the game.

As a side note, I'm a big fan of having multiple ways to traverse an area, depending on what tools or skills you use.  This also leads to replayability.

Yeah, I didn't like that aspect of Mario, either.  (But also only mildly; I can accept it, but I'd prefer it otherwise.  Changing the levels reveals the Hand of the Designer too much, I think.)

I would like to have multiple paths on some maps. I was toying with the idea of having an RPG like character growth.  Put more points into hacking and you can bypass the more combat oriented path, or something along those lines. I feel like that could get really complicated though so I might scale it back. I think I'll at least experiment with it.

Yeah, unlike an RPG, one of the reasons Mario does its thing with the changes is that Mario himself doesn't change, not permanently, so it's not like an RPG or a Metroidvania where coming back later can give you new ways to traverse the level.  There's gotta be different powerups or different paths if things are going to be different.

One of the things your "job" structure could give you is a realistic way to keep the level the same but change the traversal, by having your "handler" or NPCs give you mission-related one-time powerups.  ("For this mission, this code will insert a fake employee ID into the system, letting you pose as an employee in order to get into...")

It'd be interesting if your different employers had different sorts of powerups, ways of getting them to you, etc.  The government might just have a backdoor into security systems, whereas the criminal gang has morally dubious methods (like just abducting the employee and taking his ID), the high-tech company might have tech no one else has yet (but maybe it sometimes goes wrong), etc.
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wccrawford
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2014, 04:22:53 AM »

Yeah, unlike an RPG, one of the reasons Mario does its thing with the changes is that Mario himself doesn't change, not permanently, so it's not like an RPG or a Metroidvania where coming back later can give you new ways to traverse the level.  There's gotta be different powerups or different paths if things are going to be different.

IIRC, Mario had a slightly different end point in mind for each of the stars.  It wasn't like you were going the exactly same path but with different enemies.  It was a path that might share parts of other paths.  That in itself makes it different.  I always felt that if I wanted to fool around and get to the end of path 1 while going for star 2, I should be able to...  Even if it's not really *useful*. 

I supposed it was just 1 more bit of hand-holding, though.  You couldn't really get lost because they forced you to take the only possible path, rather than leaving it completely open.
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Moth
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2014, 06:06:12 PM »

I just now realized that OP never actually declared whether this game was 2d or 3d! my last post and this one are made under the assumption it's 2d. Archendrus, is it indeed a 2d game?

I actually disliked that Mario changed things if you said you were going for a different star.  I always felt like it should be the same level exactly, except that you take a different path, using existing things slightly differently, to get there.

differing enemies for missions can really add new interesting contexts to gameplay and work towards a theme. what exactly do you dislike about it? do you feel it damages the integrity of the game world because of the props changing based on the selected mission? personally I can actually handwave mario 64's differences as actually being proof that the game world is "alive", though I think I understand what you're getting at and I'd be intrigued to hear more.

as far as flavor goes, I think OP's game can work especially well with different layouts depending on missions because of its lore. differences in enemy composition could be explained as differing patrols at different times of day and under differing circumstances. (a few night watchmen lurking around at night, normal guard patrol during the day, increased security in fear of enemy attacks, etc)

I think the necessity of altering props between missions also depends on how linear the level is. in a 3d game like banjo kazooie or mario 64 the player has a lot more choices for how they can go about their mission from the start, and with the player taking different routes each time the enemy composition doesn't have as much of a chance to stagnate. meanwhile 2d platformers, lacking an entire axis of movement their three-dimensional brethren have, are a lot more linear in design on average and will get old quicker.

with super mario world or castlevania 1 in mind, retreading the same area *without* differences, for separate missions, could be pretty groan inducing. imagine playing the first level of castlevania 1 over and over again. different enemy placement or setpieces depending on the mission could keep it reasonably fresh. of course there should *always* be actual intent behind enemy placement (never just enemies placed to prolong gametime, and never setting up redundant enemy encounters). as long as you keep that in mind with every different set of props, I think different layouts can really only offer more interesting twists on the gameplay for the player to experience. I think it values their time investment more.
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Miko Galvez
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2014, 02:30:46 AM »

If there's huge knockback physics you can probably do a King of the Hill thing where you need to stay on a platform for a few minutes while enemies come at you. Something like getting the flag is also good, you can also make a protect this character for 10 minutes while enemies spawn constantly, like a tower defense game.
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wccrawford
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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2014, 03:32:08 AM »

differing enemies for missions can really add new interesting contexts to gameplay and work towards a theme. what exactly do you dislike about it? do you feel it damages the integrity of the game world because of the props changing based on the selected mission? personally I can actually handwave mario 64's differences as actually being proof that the game world is "alive", though I think I understand what you're getting at and I'd be intrigued to hear more.

That's a good way to describe the feeling, yes.  I felt that selecting what star I was going for shouldn't make changes to anything.  In fact, I felt like I should be able to just enter the level, without worrying about which star I was going after.  I should be able to just explore the level, and if I found a star, that was great!  My way, the focus is on exploration and adventure.  Their way, it's a checklist that I'm working on.  It's probably also obvious that I wouldn't put a timer on it, but I don't actually remember if those levels had timers, now.
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Moth
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« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2014, 05:31:41 AM »

yeah I understand that, personally I think super mario sunshine is the greatest sinner in that regard (absolutely no room for pursuing other objectives besides the one you pick). there weren't any timers in super mario 64 thankfully!

part of me likes the mission based setup of mario 64 because it adds to an illusion that the small worlds are actually much bigger. banjo kazooie had some pretty similarly sized worlds but they felt smaller because they didn't boot you out after a mission... instead there was just less and less to do and see as you knocked out the objectives one by one. I think "restarting" ala mario 64 with different props can keep levels fresher in that regard. also I like how it makes the levels seem more vast [although yeah this is, to an extent, an artificial effect of only being able to get one star at a time]
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baconman
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« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2014, 09:18:17 AM »

Super Mario 3D World handles this VERY VERY WELL, imho.
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2014, 05:44:50 AM »

If you don't want to go down the procedural generation route, make the quests the player completes in an area change the area in definitive ways. Palette swaps, different paths, new or changed NPC's/enemies, etc.
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Archendrus
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« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2014, 05:34:14 PM »

One of the things your "job" structure could give you is a realistic way to keep the level the same but change the traversal, by having your "handler" or NPCs give you mission-related one-time powerups.  ("For this mission, this code will insert a fake employee ID into the system, letting you pose as an employee in order to get into...")

It'd be interesting if your different employers had different sorts of powerups, ways of getting them to you, etc.  The government might just have a backdoor into security systems, whereas the criminal gang has morally dubious methods (like just abducting the employee and taking his ID), the high-tech company might have tech no one else has yet (but maybe it sometimes goes wrong), etc.

Hey those are great ideas!  I was starting to think along those lines. For this mission, this card will open that door.  But I really like the idea of not only giving out keys, but disguises, and other ways to change the level approach with methods varying from employer to employer.

I just now realized that OP never actually declared whether this game was 2d or 3d! my last post and this one are made under the assumption it's 2d. Archendrus, is it indeed a 2d game?

You were correct to assume 2D!  
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