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Tazi
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« Reply #2020 on: August 24, 2014, 06:28:00 AM »

I know the feeling, and pure nagging is never a help to anyone.
On the other hand, I see a lot of people growing old, spending their life complaining on how everything is fucked up and how other people are responsible for their unhappiness. Those are nothing but just lies. No one else is responsible for a person's well-being. I was like that too, and seeing the negative example, I'm on a way of improving, and taking responsablity and ownership for all the shitty things in my life, because otherwise they are not mine, and I can't have an effect on them, I can't work on fixing them.
I think one thing you should do is keeping in contact with people who actually inspire you for doing things for yourself, and avoiding those who drag you down.
Another thing most people don't realise is how much fear is a factor in some else's decision and also in their own. Everyone has different needs, and going after it involves facing a lot of fears, and taking huge crap-dumps from other people. So you should just approach slowly, and everyone's question if you want to do anything with your life, you should say them that they should be more patient with you, because you are doing your best.
Besides, you should always look at who critisizes you... Most people can't even admit that they're doing it wrong.


Besides, tenacity is a great thing, it could make a person go way more far then you could imagine. Tenacity and finishing things.

Also, start to feel excited about getting a better job, and renting your own place. Imagine all the cool possibilities, and think about the relief you will have after you get these things sorted out. Smiley
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Müsta Klaki
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« Reply #2021 on: August 26, 2014, 08:23:34 PM »

"Hey mom, I'm an indie dev!"

I'll try to keep this short. I'm sure a lot of us have that situation with family and friends who just cannot wrap their heads around what we do.

"How much money do you make?"

I dropped out of College to pursue game development. College wasn't for me. I was only on my second semester.

So now that I'm technically "not doing anything", nearly everybody in my family is disappointed in me. They don't see indie development as a real job, if only they knew the half of it.

How do you cope with this? What do you tell your family? They ask if I have a job, and I do, but it's not an "real" job to them, so they don't take me seriously. They think I'm just some lazy, unemployed idiot, when that's not the truth at all.

We all have those family members you see like, maybe every few months or something on a holiday. Every. Single. Time, they will ask what I'm doing. I have to explain it to them every time what I do. It's not a real job to them, so they just forget it completely.

How can you even cope with this? It's pissing me off to no end and making me feel like a complete loser, when I know I'm not. I love life. I stay inside a lot, and live in a basement apartment. I eat well, and play videogames with friends, and rarely ever get depressed. But they keep bringing me down. Like seriously, fuck off and let me do my thing. I can't afford a huge house like you'd want, but I'm happy.
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Impmaster
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« Reply #2022 on: August 26, 2014, 08:53:29 PM »

Make them watch indie game: the movie?

(hug)
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Müsta Klaki
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« Reply #2023 on: August 26, 2014, 09:04:42 PM »

Make them watch indie game: the movie?

(hug)

I haven't watched that yet. Think I should?
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Impmaster
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« Reply #2024 on: August 26, 2014, 09:44:58 PM »

Well it opened my eyes to the world of developing indie games, soo..

Also there's a few figures that show a lot of money, so that's good to show as well :p.
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Geti
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« Reply #2025 on: August 26, 2014, 11:09:24 PM »

While I'm sure it'll give you the feels, keep in mind that it's a big circlejerk of prominent figures dealing with the everyday drama of doing anything creative, a lot of them after they'd already made bank. It's a good insight into some things, but it romanticises a lot of pretty terrible things (overworking yourself and being hugely stressed and melodramatic) as well.

"Hey mom, I'm an indie dev!"

How can you even cope with this?
Start making some respectable money off it. Was really an interesting seeing a turnaround in support family-wise once they see you can do more than scrape by. I think most of the nagging and dismissal comes from some deep seated worry you're going to fail - show them you're not and they'll be happy to accept you.

Of course, until you can do that, hugs.
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Müsta Klaki
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« Reply #2026 on: August 26, 2014, 11:30:59 PM »

I haven't released my first game yet, so I'm probably in that transitional phase. Even if it sells bad, I'm going to keep at this for a few years. I'm still young.

I just watched the movie. It was alright, but I wished they focused on more unknown developers instead of the guys who are already big-shots. Big-shots would have been fine if it was a documentary focused on success and had tips, but it focused on the emotional side of it, and I feel like it would have represented indie developers better if it dealed with an unknown dev with 100 Twitter followers instead of an already-establish person with 15k followers who can spark a viral spread of their game with a few Tweets.

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Geti
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« Reply #2027 on: August 27, 2014, 02:18:19 AM »

Tip: get onto doing that asap.

There's all sorts of business stuff involved with making a living off of this. It's important to get that semi-sorted while you're getting the game done, or you'll be woefully unprepared if it actually gets popular, and you miss out on a lot of capital (-> be stuck in relative poverty for longer and be less able to focus on making games due to all your money troubles).

Once you have any income off it coming in (say at least $10k in the bank (not "coming sometime") - not much in living terms but "enough" for it to be a thing) and have decided on how your revenue streams will work, get an accountant to make sure the financials both make sense and are legal and to prevent you pulling your hair out about it.

With KAG getting on steam it took 2 years of being poor as shit before we actually had it published, with "$$$$" more or less "in the mail" - this was due to a mixture of us not being organised and scope creep, but through that we did actually have income from alpha sales keeping the lights on. If we didn't have all the business stuff set up behind that allowing us to make those alpha sales, we wouldn't have got the game finished because we wouldn't have been able to survive while doing so.

Another thing that had a weird effect on the business side of things was transitioning from free to paid - a lot of people feel CHEATED and WRONGED and SCAMMED as soon as you do that kind of stuff because as far as they're concerned, you TOOK THEIR GAME. Charge up front and be honest about what people get, and ideally if things are gonna change, tell people very, very loudly before you do it (ideally as they're making the decision). On the flip side, free games get more clicks due to all the cheap-arse children out there. Something to keep in mind, we're not sure of the best approach to this at the moment.

Quick Recap cause this got wordy:
- Business Stuff Set Up!
- Receive payments!
- Get an accountant.
- Be wary of giving shit away.

Food for thought, I hope.
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Blambo
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« Reply #2028 on: August 27, 2014, 04:38:06 AM »

"Hey mom, I'm an indie dev!"

I'll try to keep this short. I'm sure a lot of us have that situation with family and friends who just cannot wrap their heads around what we do.

"How much money do you make?"

I dropped out of College to pursue game development. College wasn't for me. I was only on my second semester.

So now that I'm technically "not doing anything", nearly everybody in my family is disappointed in me. They don't see indie development as a real job, if only they knew the half of it.

How do you cope with this? What do you tell your family? They ask if I have a job, and I do, but it's not an "real" job to them, so they don't take me seriously. They think I'm just some lazy, unemployed idiot, when that's not the truth at all.

We all have those family members you see like, maybe every few months or something on a holiday. Every. Single. Time, they will ask what I'm doing. I have to explain it to them every time what I do. It's not a real job to them, so they just forget it completely.

How can you even cope with this? It's pissing me off to no end and making me feel like a complete loser, when I know I'm not. I love life. I stay inside a lot, and live in a basement apartment. I eat well, and play videogames with friends, and rarely ever get depressed. But they keep bringing me down. Like seriously, fuck off and let me do my thing. I can't afford a huge house like you'd want, but I'm happy.


i know that this doesnt help this specific problem but i would say that at your age (i'm assuming you're about as old as i am, because you said you only attended 2 semesters of college and that could be totally off lol sorry but whatever) you could consider going back to college or finding some alternate source of education if game development doesn't work out. if not for future employment but because there's a bunch of things you can learn outside of games that are orders of magnitude deeper and more interesting that require some sort of structured education. also you might find something you enjoy more.

but i get the feeling that your parents don't respect your ideas for what you want to do for yourself. i don't knw your parents, but they most likely want you to explore more stuff then decide long term goals over your immediate happiness. its frustrating but kinda makes sense. hope you figure things out.
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Schoq
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« Reply #2029 on: August 27, 2014, 05:15:59 AM »

I'd laugh if someone who just dropped out of school said he worked as an indie musician because he plays guitar all day and likes fucking around with recording equipment and is totally gonna release an album one of these days.

Why can't you just be a guy who makes games and see what happens with that? Why do you have to be "an indie dev"? It really isn't a real job unless someone's paying you for it.
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« Reply #2030 on: August 27, 2014, 10:56:47 PM »

I haven't released my first game yet, so I'm probably in that transitional phase. Even if it sells bad, I'm going to keep at this for a few years. I'm still young.

I just watched the movie. It was alright, but I wished they focused on more unknown developers instead of the guys who are already big-shots. Big-shots would have been fine if it was a documentary focused on success and had tips, but it focused on the emotional side of it, and I feel like it would have represented indie developers better if it dealed with an unknown dev with 100 Twitter followers instead of an already-establish person with 15k followers who can spark a viral spread of their game with a few Tweets.



those twitter followers had to be earned, dude. you can't just emulate the success of other people by making the same concrete sacrifices they did, and expect the same results. the people in that movie had really fucking popular things and thats what made it worth risking their livelihoods. what you think "represents" indie developers is this really poisonous platonic ideal of the martyr, the idea that anyone not getting along on a shoestring budget and dropping out of college isn't real enough. these guys arent some outgroup or part of some Illuminati, they all started out with nothing just like you are and did the right thing at the right time to gain popularity while still doing things they loved. there's no difference between you and them, except they don't have delusions of grandeur.

god whatever just do your thing man, listen to what other people have to say and be practical because it doesn't necessarily close out any of your ambitions

Edit:though ok i kind of get the point that some things that are widely popular prevent smaller things from coming up for a while but it's not forever and that shouldn't prevent you from doing what you want, even if it's not your day job.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 11:18:51 PM by BLAMBO » Logged
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« Reply #2031 on: August 27, 2014, 11:38:04 PM »

I might be missing something but where is mustaklaki saying any of that, or even implying that?  He just want's to see a doc that's more relatable.

edit: ok, I did some research, and I feel terrible for giving him reasons to drop out.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2014, 11:54:39 PM by keo » Logged
Müsta Klaki
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« Reply #2032 on: August 27, 2014, 11:59:46 PM »


those twitter followers had to be earned, dude. you can't just emulate the success of other people by making the same concrete sacrifices they did, and expect the same results. the people in that movie had really fucking popular things and thats what made it worth risking their livelihoods. what you think "represents" indie developers is this really poisonous platonic ideal of the martyr, the idea that anyone not getting along on a shoestring budget and dropping out of college isn't real enough. these guys arent some outgroup or part of some Illuminati, they all started out with nothing just like you are and did the right thing at the right time to gain popularity while still doing things they loved. there's no difference between you and them, except they don't have delusions of grandeur.

My point is I wish the documentary captured the huge MAJORITY of indie developer's lives, instead of the few lucky successful ones, because they focused on emotion. Fish said in the documentary that he would kill himself if the game did terribly, but I felt the claim was fairly melodramatic because Fez already had a huge following and people were lined up ready to buy it the moment it was released.

Braid was already released and very successful, so that part of the doc was kind of silly.

Now the Super Meat Boys thing, that was weird. I liked the one guy, the bald guy. I saw a lot of myself in him.
But even the documentary's directors realized he was getting way too panicky over dumb shit. They had a deal with Microsoft before the game was even created, so their advertisements and success were pretty much guaranteed. They said at one point "if our game doesn't sell at least 10 thousand copies, it's a failure", where as most indie devs would say "if my game doesn't sell at least 500 copies, it's a failure".

I don't know. It's like... the two parties it focused on, success was guaranteed for them. It wasn't this known unknown floating around in the back of your head, tormenting you with the fact that if this doesn't work out you may have to move back in with your parents or something.

I just feel it didn't represent indie developers well, that's all.


edit: ok, I did some research, and I feel terrible for giving him reasons to drop out.

Dropping out was one of the best things I ever did. Don't feel bad...
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 12:12:28 AM by Mustaklaki » Logged

Blambo
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« Reply #2033 on: August 28, 2014, 04:44:02 AM »

I might be missing something but where is mustaklaki saying any of that, or even implying that?  He just want's to see a doc that's more relatable.

edit: ok, I did some research, and I feel terrible for giving him reasons to drop out.

no yeah seriously i was really grouchy when i wrote all of that, sorry about that Mustaklaki. coming off the heels of weird people on the internet griping about "journalistic integrity" makes me see everyone in a certain light.  i was really just saying that people who take risks like this usually have a pretty good plan or some degree of guarantee that it'll be worth the sacrifice. i doubt that what he has is worth dropping out for, but of course i shouldn't be making claims about the future.

also about the documentary, different heights bring different pressures man. just because they have that stuff lined up doesn't mean they aren't suffering or risking anything on some way, in fact the stakes are probably higher with the amount of attention they have. and again, i don't think they got to where they are through a series of bad choices, they all seemed to make do with what they had in the beginning the best they can. what they have isn't a special natural privelidge over you (i speak mostly in terms of making a popular game), so they as people pretty well represent indie game makers as character studies. these guys are just pretty far along.

there's a lot that the movie didn't cover, but of course it doesn't have to have the responsibility of bring a cross section of the whole scene. its mostly just about these three parallel stories and their linking themes. its a sad thing but lots of games dont make it beyond 100 twitter followers or whatever, but im not convinced its entirely because a documentary didn't cover them or because people have an eternal bias.

anyway sorry for going off on a rant in whats supposed to be a supportive thread but i hope you get my point. 
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 04:51:34 AM by BLAMBO » Logged
Müsta Klaki
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« Reply #2034 on: August 28, 2014, 10:07:45 AM »

i doubt that what he has is worth dropping out for, but of course i shouldn't be making claims about the future.

It wasn't, but it also wasn't one of the reasons I dropped out. I could get into it but I'd rather not, but just know that I wasn't like "I HAVE AN AMAZING IDEA THAT WILL CHANGE INDIE GAME DEVELOPMENT FOREVER, TIME TO DROP OUT I'M BEING HELD BACK BY THIS EDUCATION."

I just couldn't take it anymore, and making a game was my backup plan so I was at least doing something and not just a drop-out who wasn't making an effort at anything.
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« Reply #2035 on: August 28, 2014, 10:47:02 AM »

aaaaahhhhhhhh go to school.

do you know how much easier/less terrifying it is to make games if you have a stable career lined up?

i would probably be 10x the artist I am now if i didnt spend the last few years existentially afraid/anxious about money and working shitty jobs.
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« Reply #2036 on: August 29, 2014, 04:25:15 PM »

Getting kicked out of the house has been the next step in the logical progression of me being a constant disappointment to my family. I was also told today by my boss that he can't afford to keep me employed any longer, so... fuck.
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« Reply #2037 on: September 05, 2014, 06:41:21 PM »

Getting kicked out of the house has been the next step in the logical progression of me being a constant disappointment to my family. I was also told today by my boss that he can't afford to keep me employed any longer, so... fuck.

That's some serious shit, man. *hug*

this is about all I know about you, but I wish you luck. You can eat pretty cheap with just pb and j and noodles for a while. twice a day until you find another job at least. hopefully you know someone with a roof.

as for the family thing.. family is just people too, and sometimes they don't know how to deal with problems in the right way. i don't want to judge, but a family that would kick you out might be in some way responsible for whatever circumstance you're in right now. before that gets taken the wrong way, I have to commend you for making it this far in the world. You might have to take some shitty jobs to get by for a while, but you can make it happen. I did construction for about a year between school to build some savings. it was more than the part time jobs i had during classes. that time sucked A LOT. but damn if that time has passed and i'm better off for it. I wish the same to you, hardship then better-off-edness. it'll work out. stay tough
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« Reply #2038 on: September 10, 2014, 01:35:28 PM »

Made an OKCupid profile. Super nervous, and already I feel super shallow and shitty.
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« Reply #2039 on: September 10, 2014, 08:30:33 PM »

Best of luck, try not to be a dick and you're already better than half the guys on there, from what I've heard Smiley

@framk: sorry to hear that btw, hope it's gotten a little better since you posted but sounds like hard times.
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