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[Lauchsuppe]

@Daniel Pellicer: I don't know what part is more important or if there is a hierachy at all. Between visuals and audio I mean; a changing gamestate is pretty mandatory for a game. I would say it entirely depends on how the game is designed. However there's probably more games that are still playable without sound than there are ones that are still playable without visual feedback. Seeing is our primary sense after all.

@Sik: That was the less relevant argument in my post. But think of it that way: if it would be seen as an integral part (either by the people making the game OR by the people playing the game) then there would be no need for a switch to simply turn it off.

Enjoying a game's soundtrack on its own (on a CD or something) is entirely different from enjoying a soundtrack within a game. Almost all of the music that is written for AAA games ranges from being very solid to being really impressive.
I love the soundtrack of the Persona series for example. But it's not good game music, it doesn't really contribute to the actual game any more than a playlist of my favourite popsongs would do. So even if it's good music, it's bad in its role as a soundtrack and interchangeable. I would enjoy the game just as much if it didn't have this amazing music playing in the background.
There was a fairly good article on gamasutra about this; it even depicted the persona example. I'll see if I can find a link.

Edit: Here it is http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/181003/is_game_music_all_it_can_be.php

[Sik]

@Sik: That was the less relevant argument in my post. But think of it that way: if it would be seen as an integral part (either by the people making the game OR by the people playing the game) then there would be no need for a switch to simply turn it off.

And you still insist on that. How about these?

• Player has some hearing problems, so disables music to reduce irrelevant sounds as much as possible
• Player is talking to other people simultaneously (maybe within the game!) and music makes it much harder to talk
• Player is streaming and doesn't want music to interfere with his voice, but still would want the game to make some sound so the sound effects are left there
• Maybe the system is excessively stressed and the player is disabling everything that's feasible to try to gain some framerate

So yes, there will always be a need to switch off music no matter how immersive it is.

[Lauchsuppe]

Regarding point 2: That just supports the argument that music in games is not that relevant to the gameplay or possibly even an annoyance.
Regarding point 3: The option to adjust music and sound volume separately has been there way before streaming was a thing.
Regarding point 4: wat

You said it yourself, there's plenty of situations where you'd want to enjoy(!) a game with the music switched off - you listed some yourself. Yet you insist that music plays a crucial role in videogames and is not just a gimmick a lot of the time.

Idk man, continue believing this volume slider exists for people with hearing problems if it makes you feel better.

[Daniel Pellicer]

Regarding point 2: That just supports the argument that music in games is not that relevant to the gameplay or possibly even an annoyance.
Regarding point 3: The option to adjust music and sound volume separately has been there way before streaming was a thing.
Regarding point 4: wat

You said it yourself, there's plenty of situations where you'd want to enjoy(!) a game with the music switched off - you listed some yourself. Yet you insist that music plays a crucial role in videogames and is not just a gimmick a lot of the time.

Idk man, continue believing this volume slider exists for people with hearing problems if it makes you feel better.

You can also watch a movie without music or sound, or blind people watch it without image. That doesnt mean that sound or images are not important.

[JWK5]

Music, much like graphics, sound, and story, help give the gameplay context. Done properly, music helps sink in the feelings of the environment, the intensity of the conflict, the excitement of victory, etc. You can have a game with no music but in doing so you are losing out on a powerful contextual tool.

The real problem with the overdone orchestrations in games these days is that they are all essentially creating the same feeling and very often the same context. They are shooting themselves in the foot with the music when it comes to carving out a unique identity for their game and they are boring their audience with redundancy.

The thing that was really appealing about the 16bit and 8bit era (SNES,NES,Genesis,etc.) is that their limitations forced them to come up with really distinct soundtracks. Even when they went for orchestral-ish scores they sounded very distinct because the tools used required more creative approaches.

[Jasmine]

Lauche, I agree with you, but not in such stringent terms. For me, JWK5 said it best. Immersion and compatibility. How the music fits in context with the game. I don't want to sit here and say that there are composers who are writing music simply to write, but there are! There are composers who are writing music to sound like another composer, or fit in a genre, without taking into consideration WHAT they are writing for, and WHY it is important. Everyone has done it at least once.


As far as importance, when music is used to primarily control the emotion of the player, it can go either way. I believe it all depends on the composer and their ability to adequately reflect proper sentiments in their music. I believe if music isn't effecting gameplay, or setting a tone or mood for a game, it isn't REALLY important. Important as in, if you click the off button, nothing inwardly, or outwardly, will change. There are plenty of games that use music merely to fill up dead space. :/

I can't imagine playing the sims without music, merely because having all of the excess silence would feel awkward.

I mean, both of the games I am writing for have music contrived solely for emotional/mood/tone reasons. Though these "implementations" could effect the player's mood and the tone, it doesn't exactly change how the player is going to play the game.

For many games, that is what music is for. To manipulate the emotions of the player. Composers and developers are going even further by making music an integral part of games (i.e., effecting how the player engages in the game).

I don't know, maybe I am rambling, but if there isn't a game where emotions are at play, (along with music affecting gameplay), I don't believe music is important. The first few things that come to mind are FPS and story-less platformers. Even then, if the composer doesn't hit the mark, the music still may not be effective.

[JWK5]

Music is even important in FPS and platformers without (for the most part) a story.

Neither Doom nor Super Mario World had a particularly present story, but the mood of both games were benefited significantly by their soundtracks. I could not even imagine trying to play Donkey Kong Country without its soundtrack.

[Sik]

You said it yourself, there's plenty of situations where you'd want to enjoy(!) a game with the music switched off - you listed some yourself. Yet you insist that music plays a crucial role in videogames and is not just a gimmick a lot of the time.

And now you're twisting what I'm saying, I'm implying it's the opposite. My problem is that you seem to think that the fact one can play with the music turned off means something is wrong with the music and use it as an argument that music isn't immersive enough, not that there could be other reasons for one to not want to have it playing.

And yes, my fourth reason applies, it's getting to the point that some developers have been considering the idea of possibly offloading sound rendering to the GPU =P (as crazy as it sounds), although I don't think anybody attempted that seriously yet.

[Lauchsuppe]

Sorry if I tend to sound a little harsh, but I figured that would make for a more exciting discussion.

@Daniel: I think it's different for movies. Movies consist of a series of composed images just like music is a series of composed sounds. So naturally, they are more connected with each others. And generally, I don't think movies can really be compared to games in many ways.

@jwk5: I kind of disagree on your context bit. I think gameplay (/an interaction) has context in and of itself. Visuals, Sound and the like help making this context more precise and able to grasp for an audience (aka the people playing the game).
Music however has a structural problem: it's precomposed and not really interactive. So it can't help forging out the context as much as animated visuals or sound effects can (that's what I meant when I was talking about this "motion" thing in my earlier posting). It's usually only layered on top of the action happening. That doesn't mean that music used like this is always totally irrelevant to a game. But in many (not all!) cases, it's kind of not as important as other elements for the game designer to get her/his point across.

That's why improving middleware (which was the starting point of this discussion I think) will be hugely beneficial for music in games - maybe one day music in games will be as adaptable to the interactive processes going on as visual animations or sounds are today.

@M4uesviecr: I don't think this is mainly the composers fault. The more urgent problem is that games are often not designed with any elaborate music ideas in mind. So at the point where the composer comes in, there's already hardly any creative space left for music. I feel that often, game designers don't put much thought into music at all until they reach a certain point in development (where the game is already working without music anyway) and then decide they need music; mainly because it's just common for a game to have music. And to a certain extent this is understandable since music is such a vastly complex thing (just as complex as game design) yet a totally different discipline. A good game designer can't be expected to be a good composer as well. This makes hiring a professional audio guy in the production cycle as early as possible even more important.


I fully agree with jwk5 on this bit, though: All different kinds of games can benefit from having a good soundtrack. The use of music doesn't need to be limited to triggering emotions, it can also be used to give feedback or serve as player guidance for example. And I'm sure there's even many other possible uses nobody has even thought of yet because music in games has so long been a topic nobody really cared too much about.


@Sik: I'm not twisting what you're saying. I know you meant to imply the opposite. I just tried to make the point that the examples you gave could just as much be used against your argument.
But regardless - don't you think there's something wrong with the music if people prefer to enjoy a particular game without it? I'm not speaking of the technical quality of the music itself, I'm speaking of how it's used.
If music was just as relevant to enjoying a game as textures or ingame physics for example, then why isn't there a switch in the options menue to turn off those, too?

Again, I'm not saying that music in games is completely irrelevant, I'm just saying that it's often times more a gimmick than an integral part of a game.

[Daniel Pellicer]

Ok, I didn't know what middleware is so I supposed there is newbie people like me that would like to learn a little bit also. If this is the case I throw here a link with basic information about how this things work => http://emusician.com/how-to/1334/masterclass-using-game-audio-middleware/48158

@Lauchsuppe I think I'm starting to get your point. But in this case all the music that is intrinsecally added to cutScenes or music that comes and goes, for example when enemies approach, are integrated in the game. Are these examples cases that point the kind of uses you would like to have in music?

[JWK5]

That doesn't mean that music used like this is always totally irrelevant to a game. But in many (not all!) cases, it's kind of not as important as other elements for the game designer to get her/his point across.

Who is it not as important to? There is a reason they've added music to games in the first place and that is because it has a significant impact on the audience (as it does in film). I think you are commenting more out of personal feeling than speaking for the masses (which is fine, I get where you are coming from even if I don't necessarily agree).

I do agree, though, that it'd be nice to see more interactivity with music in games. Even if just limited to audio cues it can still go a long ways. A sudden switch in the music made the threat of drowning

in the early Sonic the Hedgehog games and made getting a star in Super Mario Bros.

.

There are definitely times where the music can work against the experience. I really enjoyed the game Nier but I really did not enjoy the music of the first dungeon. The rest of the soundtrack was amazing, but that one dungeon had music that was so repetitive that I had to mute it just to make it through with my sanity intact. I talked to my friend who was playing at the same time I was and he had the same issue, and noticed that people online also did as well. There's been quite a few instances like that in various games I've played. It is another instance of the importance of music. It is not just that a good soundtrack can help a game, but that a bad one can hinder it.

[Lauchsuppe]

@Daniel: Yes, things like this, for instance the two examples jwk5 made, are good examples.

Who is it not as important to? There is a reason they've added music to games in the first place and that is because it has a significant impact on the audience (as it does in film). I think you are commenting more out of personal feeling than speaking for the masses (which is fine, I get where you are coming from even if I don't necessarily agree).

I wouldn't dare to speak for the masses, but neither was I speaking from personal experience. It was more supposed to be a systemic approach: if the root of a game is a gameplay element (or "organized play" if you want to call it that), then sound or animation directly contribute to how playing the game will feel like - because they give direct feedback about the current ingame action happening. Music on the other hand is rarely dynamic enough to do just that and thus rather sets a general mood or atmosphere for the whole scene to take place in. At least that's what I see happening a lot of the time (and that's the personal experience part - maybe I'm just playing the wrong games).
However, all other elements of a game (visuals, sounds, gameplay) in addition to their primary function (informing about the gamestate) also already constitute a mood and atmosphere for the game. So, all background music can do (if just used like that) is to further enhance this existing mood/atmosphere. Sometimes, that can make really cool things and because music is so powerful at conveying emotions, it can totally change the overall feel of a scene - but not all games need that. Other times (from my experience: most of the time) it feels kinda redundant.


The two examples you picked showcase good use of music in a game context. And it's noticable that in both examples the music kind of works like some extended sound effect (just that it's a piece of music instead of just a sound effect) - not only does it set the mood but it also gives direct (and in sync) feedback of the current gamestate. That's what I meant in my previous posting when I said that I believe that, thanks to improving middleware, sound and music will continue to merge even further.

[Pete301]

Lauchsuppe, I misunderstood your original comments. I thought that you were making the point of 'All music soundtracks don't add anything to the game, therefore they are not needed and shouldn't be included', rather than you would like to see music become a more interactive and integral part of games.

Though I am still confused that you think music only furthers an existing mood/atmosphere. The article from gamasutra that you posted seems to contradict that quite heavily with The Shining trailer. I'm not saying that if you played Taylor Swift over Resident Evil that it would make it into a family game. I feel that music added into a game at the correct moments with the correct composition can definitely add a lot to the game.

Also, a nice example of interactive music is the gel levels from

. When I first noticed, it gave me a challenge to keep the music going for as long as I could. Though that is only a tiny piece of interactive music.

Interactive music could definitely be improved and used more in games.

[Lauchsuppe]

Lauchsuppe, I misunderstood your original comments. I thought that you were making the point of 'All music soundtracks don't add anything to the game, therefore they are not needed and shouldn't be included', rather than you would like to see music become a more interactive and integral part of games.

Though I am still confused that you think music only furthers an existing mood/atmosphere. The article from gamasutra that you posted seems to contradict that quite heavily with The Shining trailer. I'm not saying that if you played Taylor Swift over Resident Evil that it would make it into a family game. I feel that music added into a game at the correct moments with the correct composition can definitely add a lot to the game.

Also, a nice example of interactive music is the gel levels from

. When I first noticed, it gave me a challenge to keep the music going for as long as I could. Though that is only a tiny piece of interactive music.

Interactive music could definitely be improved and used more in games.

I don't agree with everything the article says, but I found it to be an interesting read so I thought I'd share it.

However, I do think a soundtrack can add a completely new feeling to a scene and thus create an atmosphere/mood that couldn't be achieved by other methods; it's just that most of the time when music is used as just background music, it doesn't add that much(from my experience at least). And that's okay, because it would be hella confusing if the music would constantly play such a strong role in a game. BUT why have this particular music in the game at all if it doesn't add much to the overall atmosphere (except for sounding nice maybe)?

I would really appreciate a more moderate use of music that doesn't serve any other purpose than just "filling in some more atmosphere". Because this doesn't do the amazing capabilities music has any justice. Because I find myself wondering pretty often "why is this track in the game - what purpose does it serve". It would be so cool if music in games would be used with more consideration.

[xastris]

This is such a good thread. Couldn't help but throw in my 2 cents, please bear with me:

It seems like part of the discussion going on here is really trying to answer other questions, e.g. why is game music priced so low, etc. That, from what I understand, is an economic question that has to do with supply & demand, and also pricing strategy. However, if we were to talk about the "over-saturation" of the game music scene, we will really be looking at the competitiveness of the industry, which can generally be analysed from the following aspects (which I believe have all been mentioned one way or another in this thread)

1. Barrier to entry. The easier for someone to enter an industry, the more competitive the industry will be. Since the invention of computer music, this barrier keeps getting lower, thus the competition.
2. Threat of substitutes: royalty-free music that's cheaper and easier to obtain.
3. Bargaining power of suppliers. Consider your direct inputs: where do you get your sample libraries, DAWs, instruments and recording sessions? If individual suppliers are highly differentiated, and switching from one to another will cost you either money or quality, then that increases the bargaining power of the suppliers; end results: higher costs, lower profit for composers, high competition. Vice versa.
4. Bargaining power of buyers (e.g. game dev studios). If they can switch from one composer to another at low/no cost, and even produce the music themselves, then their bargaining power is high. Buyers are also powerful when their own industry profit margin is low (which is true in the video game business), and when they don't consider music to be a defining element to the quality of their product (which, more often than not, is also true).

So there you have it--nothing new has been brought up, but it can be a good recap of what's been discussed here, from a business perspective (more or less).

[8thMode]

My 2 cents is that if we all stop under valuing ourselves and lowballing/undercutting each other, we'd be in a better place.

[Impmaster]

I'm pretty sure a famous indie game dev said something along those lines when asked why his game was so expensive (like 30 bucks).

Maybe games are undervalued.

[8thMode]

Maybe games are undervalued.

I'm sure everything and everyone (maybe bar some politicians) is undervalued. Doesn't mean we shouldn't respect ourselves and create a healthier environment.

I just don't understand what's so goddamn appealing about a race to the bottom.

[Impmaster]

People actually buy your stuff.

[8thMode]

People actually buy your stuff.

I'm not sure if that's optimistic, or horribly depressing. While I don't know if I necessarily agree, I feel you man.

Getting fairly compensated for doing something you're passionate about shouldn't be some mythical fairy tale. We've gotta stop looking at it that way. We've gotta stop saying "well this is this, and that is that", and start fixing it ourselves. Nobody's gonna pay "johnny just-bought-logic" $300/min. Start setting a precedent of how much good music costs, otherwise as composers we're teaching developers that music is cheap.

That said, it's late and I'm probably being over utopic.