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[Faust06]

This has been making rounds in the press lately, and reactions range from disgust to ambivalence. I thought it would be more of the former.

I can see this garnering more attention from large media outlets upon release, leading to calls for change in policy or an outright ban. Obviously there are plenty of vile games already in dinky flash format or whatever, but no murder simulators built to this scale to my knowledge (spare me the gta rebute). I would guess a boycott would be ineffective because all the negative press probably works in the dev's favor for this one.

Will this just blow over and be forgotten? What's to be done? Or is it not a big deal?

[MorganRamsay]

If we want games that explore the emotional spectrum, including love, joy, and sadness, we also need games that explore the darker side of the human condition, especially taboos such as mental illness, perversion, and anger. Hatred is not a social ill; the game is part of the tapestry of entertainment. There is an important role for "exploitation games" to play in advancing video games as a storytelling medium. In just one day, the trailer for Hatred has reinvigorated the conversation about the video game as an artifact of popular culture. In the long run, turning our heads in disgust serves to harm only ourselves. If we want to push the medium forward, we can't keep the medium back.

[Netsu]

Not a big deal imo, it looks like a black metal version of Postal. Wouldn't be surprised if half the countries ban it. There is a niche for games like this for sure, but I think it's so small that it won't be a financial success either way.

I keep wondering tho, why games in particular are scrutinised so closely when it comes to violence, sex and drugs. Is it because the medium is so young and some things are still shocking? Or is it because the general public considers each game from a kid perspective? No one bats an eye at movies, books and music with such content.
I mean there is music that literally promotes national socialism, racism, murder and brutal rape, people just ignore it.

[jolene]

Not a big deal imo, it looks like a black metal version of Postal. There is a niche for games like this for sure, but I think it's so small that it won't be a financial success.

I keep wondering tho, why games in particular are scrutinised so closely when it comes to violence, sex and drugs. Is it because the medium is so young and some things are still shocking? Or is it because the general public considers each game from a kid perspective? No one bats an eye at movies, books and music with such content.
I mean there is music that literally promotes national socialism, racism, murder and brutal rape, people just ignore it.

it's not the violence being scrutinized it's the message the developers sent

i mean if you think this criticism of video games is the equivalent of parents getting mad at R rated games or whatever then you need to read closer

...and people do criticize movies, books and music with fucked up content. idk what you're talking about lol

[jolene]

If we want games that explore the emotional spectrum, including love, joy, and sadness, we also need games that explore the darker side of the human condition, especially taboos such as mental illness, perversion, and anger. Hatred is not a social ill; the game is part of the tapestry of entertainment. There is an important role for "exploitation games" to play in advancing video games as a storytelling medium. In just one day, the trailer for Hatred has reinvigorated the conversation about the video game as an artifact of popular culture. In the long run, turning our heads in disgust serves to harm only ourselves. If we want to push the medium forward, we can't keep the medium back.

lol there's nothing boundary pushing about it. hatred is the same old shit

[MorganRamsay]

lol there's nothing boundary pushing about it. hatred is the same old shit

Apparently, other people do not agree with you.

• Hatred proves that we need violence to mean something again (Destructoid, 10/22/2014 2:00 PM)
  
• Team behind Hatred lashes out in blog post, thanks press for attention (Polygon, 10/21/14 11:15 AM)
  
• CEO behind Hatred responds to accusations of neo-Nazi, anti-Islamic affiliation (Polygon, 10/20/14 11:30 AM)
  
• Hatred spoof brings fluff and pizza to grim shooter (Polygon, 10/20/14 10:30 AM)
  
• Hatred creator defends game's 'honest' approach (MCV, 10/20/14 3:32 AM)
  
• 'Hatred' Developer Creative Destruction Denies Accusations That Some Studio Members Are 'Neo Nazis' (GamePolitics, 10/20/14 3:31 AM)
  
• The Kind of Video Game Violence That Disturbs Me (Kotaku, 10/18/14 2:00 PM)
  
• Weekly Recap: PS4 Beats Xbox One and Mass-Murdering Game Revealed (GameSpot, 10/18/14 4:15 AM)
  
• The man who made that Hatred trailer says the game is all about honesty (Polygon, 10/17/14 12:00 PM)
  
• Where is the line with video game violence and Hatred? (Games.com, 10/17/14 10:54 AM)
  
• GOG: No Contact With Developer of 'Hatred' (GamePolitics, 10/17/14 10:26 AM)
  
• Shock culture is dead, making the Hatred trailer powerless and nearly comical (Polygon, 10/17/14 9:58 AM)
  
• GOG Responds to Controversial Ultraviolent Killing Game, "Hatred" (GameSpot, 10/17/14 7:30 AM)
  
• Epic requests Unreal Engine logo removal from Hatred trailer (MCV, 10/17/14 3:46 AM)
  
• Epic Games requests logo removal from ultraviolent game Hatred (Develop, 10/17/14 3:05 AM)
  
• Epic distances itself from mass murder game with Islamaphobic links (VG247, 10/17/14 12:12 AM)
  
• What People Are Saying About 'Hatred' (GamePolitics, 10/16/14 4:04 PM)
  
• New game simulates mass shooting sprees (VG247, 10/16/14 3:51 PM)
  
• Civilian massacring game Hatred courts controversy, gets it (Eurogamer, 10/16/14 3:18 PM)
  
• Epic Games: We Are Not Associated In Any Way With 'Hatred' (GamePolitics, 10/16/14 12:54 PM)
  
• Epic Games distances itself from ultraviolent mass-murder game Hatred (update (Polygon, 10/16/14 12:30 PM)
  
• Gameplay Trailer for Mass-Murdering Shooter Is Beyond Brutal (GameSpot, 10/16/14 10:48 AM)
  
• The worst trailer of the year revels in slaughtering innocents (Polygon, 10/16/14 10:38 AM)
  
• 'Hatred' Unapologetically Embraces The Violence of 'Mass Killings' (GamePolitics, 10/16/14 9:36 AM)

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

hold on, stop the presses, check out how excited i am about a postal clone.

[Netsu]

it's not the violence being scrutinized it's the message the developers sent

Not sure what that message is to be honest, I've only seen the trailer and read some short 'statement' from the devs saying pretty much 'it's just game'.

i mean if you think this criticism of video games is the equivalent of parents getting mad at R rated games or whatever then you need to read closer

...and people do criticize movies, books and music with fucked up content. idk what you're talking about lol

I'm not wondering about criticism in general, but about the difference in how people react to a violent games and to other violent mediums.
When a new music album comes out from an established studio it just goes straight to the stores and people who like it buy it, there are no shocked reaction anywhere. The shock might eventually come when the band goes on a tour and people oppose to 'satanic rites' taking place in their city, but it's also bleak in comparison.
I also don't remember movies like 'Devils Rejects' causing this much uproar, even though it seems pretty similar to me (if not worse, since the movie includes both physical and psychological torture), and it was a relatively mainstream movie.

I guess people are more easily shocked by video games because they haven't been shocked enough by them yet. Maybe 20 years from now when a game like Hatred comes out no one will even notice it, shock value gets old.

[jolene]

lol there's nothing boundary pushing about it. hatred is the same old shit

Apparently, other people do not agree with you.

• Hatred proves that we need violence to mean something again (Destructoid, 10/22/2014 2:00 PM)
  
• Team behind Hatred lashes out in blog post, thanks press for attention (Polygon, 10/21/14 11:15 AM)
  
• CEO behind Hatred responds to accusations of neo-Nazi, anti-Islamic affiliation (Polygon, 10/20/14 11:30 AM)
  
• Hatred spoof brings fluff and pizza to grim shooter (Polygon, 10/20/14 10:30 AM)
  
• Hatred creator defends game's 'honest' approach (MCV, 10/20/14 3:32 AM)
  
• 'Hatred' Developer Creative Destruction Denies Accusations That Some Studio Members Are 'Neo Nazis' (GamePolitics, 10/20/14 3:31 AM)
  
• The Kind of Video Game Violence That Disturbs Me (Kotaku, 10/18/14 2:00 PM)
  
• Weekly Recap: PS4 Beats Xbox One and Mass-Murdering Game Revealed (GameSpot, 10/18/14 4:15 AM)
  
• The man who made that Hatred trailer says the game is all about honesty (Polygon, 10/17/14 12:00 PM)
  
• Where is the line with video game violence and Hatred? (Games.com, 10/17/14 10:54 AM)
  
• GOG: No Contact With Developer of 'Hatred' (GamePolitics, 10/17/14 10:26 AM)
  
• Shock culture is dead, making the Hatred trailer powerless and nearly comical (Polygon, 10/17/14 9:58 AM)
  
• GOG Responds to Controversial Ultraviolent Killing Game, "Hatred" (GameSpot, 10/17/14 7:30 AM)
  
• Epic requests Unreal Engine logo removal from Hatred trailer (MCV, 10/17/14 3:46 AM)
  
• Epic Games requests logo removal from ultraviolent game Hatred (Develop, 10/17/14 3:05 AM)
  
• Epic distances itself from mass murder game with Islamaphobic links (VG247, 10/17/14 12:12 AM)
  
• What People Are Saying About 'Hatred' (GamePolitics, 10/16/14 4:04 PM)
  
• New game simulates mass shooting sprees (VG247, 10/16/14 3:51 PM)
  
• Civilian massacring game Hatred courts controversy, gets it (Eurogamer, 10/16/14 3:18 PM)
  
• Epic Games: We Are Not Associated In Any Way With 'Hatred' (GamePolitics, 10/16/14 12:54 PM)
  
• Epic Games distances itself from ultraviolent mass-murder game Hatred (update (Polygon, 10/16/14 12:30 PM)
  
• Gameplay Trailer for Mass-Murdering Shooter Is Beyond Brutal (GameSpot, 10/16/14 10:48 AM)
  
• The worst trailer of the year revels in slaughtering innocents (Polygon, 10/16/14 10:38 AM)
  
• 'Hatred' Unapologetically Embraces The Violence of 'Mass Killings' (GamePolitics, 10/16/14 9:36 AM)

is your point that a lot of people talked about it? just because something is controversial doesn't mean it's pushing boundaries. this is equivalent to bill maher or some other old dude saying something racist or whatever. different controversy, different day, same shit. but if that isn't what you mean, feel free to narrow it down to an article that argues it's pushing boundaries because i'm not going through a link dump

as for boycotting or banning hatred in the first post, as long as the devs dont get a platform to spew their racist shit everything will be fine. i'm sad game devs still think transgressive art is cool and new but whatever it's their bad opinions

brief response 2 @netsu: 1) this isn't a jack thompson deal and that died out long time ago 2) you're only aware of video game controversies because you follow video game news

[MorganRamsay]

I also don't remember movies like 'Devils Rejects' causing this much uproar, even though it seems pretty similar to me (if not worse, since the movie includes both physical and psychological torture), and it was a relatively mainstream movie.

I guess people are more easily shocked by video games because they haven't been shocked enough by them yet. Maybe 20 years from now when a game like Hatred comes out no one will even notice it, shock value gets old.

That's close to my point.

When anyone argues against Hatred, they bring up the Postal series from 1993, saying, "We've seen this before!" Yeah. Once. Or, they bring up the Grand Theft Auto series and the fact that you can choose to kill ambient NPCs. Yet, there are few, if any, games beyond Postal that have you play the role of a spree killer while there is a catalog of movies that gives you that perspective: Rampage, The Devil's Rejects, Elephant, Angst, and so on.

Despite the fact that this theme and other taboos are broadly acceptable in other media, Hatred catches this kind of flak:



How can video games mature as a medium if they're not "allowed" to cover the same ground that movies have been covering for decades?

[s0]

it's not the violence being scrutinized it's the message the developers sent

i mean if you think this criticism of video games is the equivalent of parents getting mad at R rated games or whatever then you need to read closer

...and people do criticize movies, books and music with fucked up content. idk what you're talking about lol

pretty much

anti-"political correctness" message + the devs' uh... "political affiliations" is a huge red flag

[jolene]

I also don't remember movies like 'Devils Rejects' causing this much uproar, even though it seems pretty similar to me (if not worse, since the movie includes both physical and psychological torture), and it was a relatively mainstream movie.

I guess people are more easily shocked by video games because they haven't been shocked enough by them yet. Maybe 20 years from now when a game like Hatred comes out no one will even notice it, shock value gets old.

That's close to my point.

When anyone argues against Hatred, they bring up the Postal series from 1993, saying, "We've seen this before!" Yeah. Once. Or, they bring up the Grand Theft Auto series and the fact that you can choose to kill ambient NPCs. Yet, there are few, if any, games beyond Postal that have you play the role of a spree killer while there is a catalog of movies that gives you that perspective: Rampage, The Devil's Rejects, Elephant, Angst, and so on.

Despite the fact that this theme and other taboos are broadly acceptable in other media, Hatred catches this kind of flak:



How can video games mature as a medium if they're not "allowed" to cover the same ground that movies have been covering for decades?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rage_(Stephen_King_novel)

edit: also if ur going to tell me other mediums don't get a gawker? comment like that then idk what to say

[MorganRamsay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rage_(Stephen_King_novel)

A single link as a response? Why not just avoid reading the thread? That would be just as great of a contribution.

Here's what Stephen King had to say about why he let Rage go out of print:

There are factors in the Carneal case which make it doubtful that Rage was the defining factor, but I fully recognize that it is in my own self-interest to feel just that way; that I am prejudiced in my own behalf. I also recognize the fact that a novel such as Rage may act as an accelerant on a troubled mind; one cannot divorce the presence of my book in that kid's locker from what he did any more than one can divorce the gruesome sex-murders committed by Ted Bundy from his extensive collection of bondage-oriented porno magazines.

To argue free speech in the face of such an obvious linkage (or to suggest that others may obtain a catharsis from such material which allows them to be atrocious only in their fantasies) seems to me immoral. That such stories, video games (Harris was fond of a violent computer-shootout game called Doom), or photographic scenarios will exist no matter what—that they will be obtainable under the counter if not over it—begs the question. The point is that I don't want to be a part of it. Once I knew what had happened, I pulled the ejection-seat lever on that particular piece of work. I withdrew Rage, and I did it with relief rather than regret.

If, on the other hand, you were to ask me if the presence of potentially unstable or homicidal persons makes it immoral to write a novel or make a movie in which violence plays a part, I would say absolutely not. In most cases, I have no patience with such reasoning. I reject it as both bad thinking and bad morals. Like it or not, violence is a part of life and a unique part of American life. If accused of being part of the problem, my response is the time-honored reporter's answer: "Hey, man, I don't make the news, I just report it."

I write fantasies, but draw from the world I see. If that sometimes hurts, it's because the truth usually does. John Steinbeck was accused of gratuitous ugliness when he wrote about the migration of the Okies to California in The Grapes of Wrath, even of trying to foment a domestic revolution, but most of his accusers—like those who made similar accusations against Upton Sinclair when he wrote about the corrupt putrescence of the meat-packing industry in The Jungle—were people who preferred fairy-tales and happily-ever-afters. Sometimes the truth of how we live is just ugly, that's all. But to turn aside from these truths out of some perceived delicacy, or to give in to the idea that writing about violence causes violence, is to embrace hypocrisy. In Washington, hypocrisy breeds politicians. In the arts, it breeds pornography.

[starsrift]

If we want games that explore the emotional spectrum, including love, joy, and sadness, we also need games that explore the darker side of the human condition, especially taboos such as mental illness, perversion, and anger. Hatred is not a social ill; the game is part of the tapestry of entertainment. There is an important role for "exploitation games" to play in advancing video games as a storytelling medium. In just one day, the trailer for Hatred has reinvigorated the conversation about the video game as an artifact of popular culture. In the long run, turning our heads in disgust serves to harm only ourselves. If we want to push the medium forward, we can't keep the medium back.

How can you develop hatred for a character you see, kill, leave behind, and go on to the next target?
That's not exploring hatred, just psychopathy.
...Like a million other games have before.

We seem to be okay with it.

[MorganRamsay]

How can you develop hatred for a character you see, kill, leave behind, and go on to the next target?
That's not exploring hatred, just psychopathy.
...Like a million other games have before.

We seem to be okay with it.

I'd assume that the object of the player's hatred is supposed to be the character being played.

[jolene]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rage_(Stephen_King_novel)

A single link as a response? Why not just avoid reading the thread? That would be just as great of a contribution.

you were whining about how games are a target. i linked you that. and how does stephen king's justifications mean anything to my point? the point is there was controversy. how about fuck off if you cant argue

[jolene]

How can you develop hatred for a character you see, kill, leave behind, and go on to the next target?
That's not exploring hatred, just psychopathy.
...Like a million other games have before.

We seem to be okay with it.

I'd assume that the object of the player's hatred is supposed to be the character being played.

i already played spec ops

[s0]

How can you develop hatred for a character you see, kill, leave behind, and go on to the next target?
That's not exploring hatred, just psychopathy.
...Like a million other games have before.

We seem to be okay with it.

I'd assume that the object of the player's hatred is supposed to be the character being played.

from what ive heard about the devs, nope

[MorganRamsay]

from what ive heard about the devs, nope

From what you've heard? From a Tumblr blog? You're buying into the Neo-Nazi nonsense? I think I'll stick to the Business forum.

[jolene]

it's purely a reactionary game. idk why you care so much about it

"By the game? That we should not bend under political correctness propaganda which we can see everywhere right now. We live in the free world, with freedom of speech and artistic expression and we should use it in any way we want, otherwise we'll be falling under SJWs regime. Some reactions for this trailer are a great example of this. Fortunately there are many people who understand us and are standing on our side."