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[team_q]

Their game isn't amoral, just because they say it is. Which is fine, you just have to deal with the consequences of making a game that people generally find taboo, wanton massacre of seemingly blameless civilians doesn't sit well with people. Maybe it will get some traction with the disenfranchised-loser loner crowd.

I think the reason why this rubs people so raw is it seems to be played completely straight, anything with similar topics is either surreal humour or satire.

Also:

dumb what's the point when muslim massacre was made ten years ago

This.

[ThemsAllTook]

What really bothers me is the question of who this game is made for. It's not a pleasant thought that there's a demographic of people who would actively enjoy this sort of brutality. I can understand wanting to feel powerful, but I just can't get into the head of someone who wants to act out the execution of a screaming, pleading, helpless victim...let alone someone who takes the time to implement it in a game.

[Schoq]

The only person I've known who enjoyed doing that stuff in postal 2 was in a deep depression at the time, voice almost trembling with pent up antisocial anger as he explained why he liked playing the game.
Also used to describe himself as a master forum troll.

It was pretty scary to see and I'm glad he's much better now!

Edit: point being it's probably the same feelings that drive people to a school shooting except they let it stay a fantasy.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i think that as an aside actually *is* why it's controversial; if it were a white guy killing brown people nobody would even get offended by this game, or notice it

You honestly think that? I'm 100% sure it would be much, much worse if the antagonist was of a different race than all the victims. The game is already controversial, how is making it about racial purging helping?

i don't only think that, i know that. you can look at other games similar to this that were made in the past about genocide, which didn't get as much attention as this one did

e.g. muslim massacre, as others mentioned in this thread already, made by a friend of mine, sigvatr -- it's a game where you are an american killing random muslim civilians, eventually you kill osama bin ladin and muhammad too. it was intended to make fun of americans and to troll people, sig doesn't actually dislike muslims at all; it got some attention in the muslim press and a little bit of outrage but nothing substantial, it was largely ignored in comparison to the attention given to "hatred"

there was also a game called ethnic cleansing, where you went around killing different races (starting with blacks and ending with jews). again, not much attention: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Cleansing_%28video_game%29 -- similarly, it got a little bit of press, almost all negative, but not as much as "hatred", few people have even heard of this game today, even though it was explicitly a game about a nazi killing african americans, latinos, and jews, with the final boss being ariel sharon

from its wikipedia page: "While it received little attention from the mainstream media, the game was immediately controversial among liberal Americans."

so yes, i'm pretty sure that if this game were not about killing white people, nobody would care. it's controversial exactly because the victims "look like you and me" rather than some weird group that you barely know anyone in

one game comparable to this is that super columbine massacre RPG game, where you played as the two shooters shooting white kids in columbine; that one *did* get a bunch of mainstream media press; from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Columbine_Massacre_RPG! -- "Reception of Super Columbine Massacre has been extremely negative amongst the mainstream media and those personally affected by the shootings. [...] Super Columbine Massacre was largely condemned by the press. Betty Nguyen of CNN labeled the game as an example of a subculture that worships terrorists.[23] Newspapers called the game "exploitive" and a "monstrosity".[24][25] PC World declared the game #2 on its list of "The 10 Worst Games of All Time."[26] Even critics who were supportive of Ledonne's intent found the game hard to play; Ben Kuchera of Ars Technica said that he left the game "shaken", but that as an easily-misunderstood game"

did all those news outlets cover muslim massacre and ethnic cleansing? largely nope

[rj]

the difference is that hatred has extreme hyperreal death cam closeups of murder whereas ethnic cleansing (what the fuck) does not do anything close to that

people would still care if the extreme hyperreal death cam closeups of murder were murders of black civilians and not white ones. it's disgusting either way.

it's not the violence, the subject matter, the color palette, the nihilism or the misogyny that's the thing people are complaining about. it's the sheer horrible relish it takes in combining all of these things and extrapolating them to the most extreme points.

also, as stated, hatred is not satire. this isn't a game about americans and their love of violence (because that would actually be worth making) it's a game without a point at all. it's just meaningless noise. hatred is nothing.

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[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

people would still care if the extreme hyperreal death cam closeups of murder were murders of black civilians and not white ones. it's disgusting either way.

i do not believe this to be true at all, for the reasons mentioned above, and also just thinking about the reactions of the media towards ferguson, the zimmerman/travon thing, and so on. i'd think such a game wouldn't get as much press as "hatred" at all

[rj]

people obviously wouldn't care in the mainstream at all (see also: ferguson) but i assure you that you'd still see the same articles at polygon, kotaku et al plus the broader reaction among those who care about games that we're seeing now if that was the case.

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[Boreal]

I've read a theory before that when there is a "purpose" to the killing people don't seem to think it's as bad.  So comparing something like Ethnic Cleansing to Hatred, in Ethnic Cleansing there is some kind of motive, while in Hatred the killing is for the sake of killing.

Obviously this is stupid and both games are depraved garbage, but based on the evidence there is a nugget of truth here.  It's not even about race, it's about the principle.

[rj]

I've read before that when there is a "purpose" to the killing people don't seem to think it's as bad

this is definitely true as well. the purposelessness of the violence is part of why it's so fucked up and is a large part of why it's getting the recognition it is

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[Boreal]

I think this reflects on real life as well.  Whenever you hear about how someone has shot up a school or a mall, there's always a long investigation done to find out why they did it, when it's a completely moot point.  They're killers either way, having some kind of agenda doesn't change what they did.

[Netsu]

I think the reason why this rubs people so raw is it seems to be played completely straight, anything with similar topics is either surreal humour or satire.

That's why I find the black metal analogy spot on, hell, the protagonist even looks the part.

hi racist

Would YOU like to live in an Islamic state, where sharia is the law?

What really bothers me is the question of who this game is made for. It's not a pleasant thought that there's a demographic of people who would actively enjoy this sort of brutality. I can understand wanting to feel powerful, but I just can't get into the head of someone who wants to act out the execution of a screaming, pleading, helpless victim...let alone someone who takes the time to implement it in a game.

Well, Hotline Miami had those, Manhunt also had extremely brutal executions. Granted, in those games the people you execute are out to kill you right up to the point you begin the execution sequence, so it's not exactly the same thing.

I just hope the demographic of people who'd like to play out such fantasies in a game is small enough not to grant this game much success.

@rinku: I was under the impression Muslim Massacre got a lot of flak, and Sigvatr got into some serious trouble because of it, but I guess I got it wrong.
Still, both games you mention seem like an obvious satire, with extremely caricatured racial stereotypes all over them. Even if they were made with a straight face I find it hard to take them seriously just looking at them.
Hatred on the other hand looks pretty realistic and very serious. Do you think it would get less media attention if it was taking place for example in Tokyo or Cape Town but retained it's production value and seriousness?

Edit: Reading more into it, seems Ethnic Cleansing WAS made with a straight face, but it was about fighting people, not murdering helpless victims, which takes the controversy down a few notches.

[Boreal]

Hatred on the other hand looks pretty realistic and very serious. Do you think it would get less media attention if it was taking place for example in Tokyo or Cape Town but retained it's production value and seriousness?

That's a good point.  Hatred has a lot of effort put into it, and I think that's one reason people are more apprehensive about it in comparison to the rest of the "babby's first game"-tier murder simulators.

On that note, it's easy to blame the latter group of games on edgy kids who don't know better.  Hatred is by a team of skilled adults.

[Schoq]

hi racist

Would YOU like to live in an Islamic state, where sharia is the law?

are you fucking serious? maybe you should follow less muslim scare facebook groups

[Netsu]

It's an honest question and I don't even know why you question my seriousness.

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

hi racist

Would YOU like to live in an Islamic state, where sharia is the law?

hehehehe

edit: is that a credible threat? is there a risk of that happening in poland? is the risk significant enough to justify pushback/harm to innocent muslims? please advise.

[jolene]

hi racist

Would YOU like to live in an Islamic state, where sharia is the law?

hi racist
also you act like western patriarchy isn't already oppressive lol

[Netsu]

OK, it seems I am in fact giving way too much credit to Islam scare sites.

The thing that made the biggest impression on me was when I read that a government demographics body in Germany issued an
official statement that their prediction is the Muslim population will exceed 50% of all Germans by 2050 or something. I'm pretty sure I checked the credibility of that back then, because it didn't seem likely to me, and it checked out. This made a huge impression on me.

But now I'm trying to find any statistics on this and they are far, far, less worrying, with just a few percent absolute increase in the next 20 years or so.

There are still issues with extremists committing acts of violence and aggression in the west, but these numbers put a completely new outlook on them and make them look much more like just a few psychopaths... and all of them far away from where I live.

Well, I actually feel much better now.

hi racist
also you act like western patriarchy isn't already oppressive lol

We're not stoning women for being raped, so we've got that going.

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

There are still issues with extremists committing acts of violence and aggression in the west, but these numbers put a completely new outlook on them and make them look much more like just a few psychopaths.

<3

[jolene]

hi racist
also you act like western patriarchy isn't already oppressive lol

We're not stoning women for being raped, so we've got that going.

yea instead we psychologically torture women and claim the rapist is the victim

[paste]

i think that as an aside actually *is* why it's controversial; if it were a white guy killing brown people nobody would even get offended by this game, or notice it

People took issue with RE5 because of it.