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[battlerager]

hi racist
also you act like western patriarchy isn't already oppressive lol

We're not stoning women for being raped, so we've got that going.

yea instead we psychologically torture women and claim the rapist is the victim

that's still technically less bad than stoning

[pottering]

nowadays people think it is ok that the VERY BEST strangers can assume of you is "just some asshole"

wtf

asshole is the new normal

[Jason Rohrer]

I figure, if you're going to make a game where you kill 800 people (like, pretty much every AAA game), you might as well have the main character fit the part.  Nathan Drake is just too disconnected from all the killing he does before breakfast.

I think the Hatred devs missed an opportunity here in terms of the main character.  He's a flat cartoon villain.  We have plenty of real spree killers to study from all around the world.

You know, gimme a game that gets into the head of this guy:





Also, Super Columbine Massacre RPG was a really deep, rich exploration of the mindset of those kids.

The fact that games are so often blamed for real life killing sprees makes these kinds of games all the more interesting.

[Dacke]

Netsu,

It's quite possible to fight against destructive religions (like Christianity and Islam) while treating the adherents with respect. For example by fully including them in secular society and showing them freedom from dogma. And by looking out for individuals who need support rather than angry criticism and hate (especially women/lgbt/young people).

Personally I think it would be great if we could be more critical against, for example, the strong patriarchal structures found in the Abrahamitic religions. But it's currently very hard to do with Islam -- it usually ends up doing more harm than good. Because racists and xenophobes will co-opt the criticism and use it to fuel hate against the entire group, instead of treating it as an attempt to help those oppressed by the religion. If the racists would just stop with the scare tactics and hate it would become possible for reasonable people (like socialists) to be more openly critical of the religions (while being accepting of the individuals at the same time). Now we often have to skip the criticism, which is too bad.

Regarding growth statistics; religious groups that try to boost their numbers by breeding usually fail to properly indoctrinate their children. The conversion rate to "moderate" religion or irreligion among young people in secular societies is usually very high (for example in Haredi judaism in Israel). Which might be what those older estimates totally missed.

[s0]

But it's currently very hard to do with Islam -- it usually ends up doing more harm than good. Because racists and xenophobes will co-opt the criticism and use it to fuel hate against the entire group, instead of treating it as an attempt to help those oppressed by the religion. If the racists would just stop with the scare tactics and hate it would become possible for reasonable people (like socialists) to be critical of the religions (while being accepting of the individuals at the same time). Now we often have to skip the criticism, which is too bad.

i agree. talk about bigots poisoning the well.

tho it has to be said (speaking as someone who is politically on the left) that the left has had a "blind spot" for fundamentalist islam for too long, leaving the issue (and it IS a big global issue atm) to right wingers.

Regarding growth statistics; religious groups that try to boost their numbers by breeding usually fail to properly indoctrinate their children. The conversion rate to "moderate" religion or irreligion among young people in secular societies is usually very high (for example in Haredi judaism in Israel). Which might be what those older estimates totally missed.

also many ppl who turn to groups like ISIS are either converts to islam or people whose families are fairly moderate. they're also often from immigrant families, so the argument could be made that the radicalization happening among a certain contingent of young european muslims is a result of the way most of europe treats immigrants and their descedants (i.e. like shit). ppl who feel disenfranchised are more susceptible to the propaganda of extremist groups.

[Mittens]

I just watched the trailer and I feel like a part of my soul died

[Mittens]

I feel like a bad person for even watching that trailer

[Leon Fook]

We are the bad people.

[Netsu]

Netsu,

It's quite possible to fight against destructive religions (like Christianity and Islam) while treating the adherents with respect. For example by fully including them in secular society and showing them freedom from dogma. And by looking out for individuals who need support rather than angry criticism and hate (especially women/lgbt/young people).

Personally I think it would be great if we could be more critical against, for example, the strong patriarchal structures found in the Abrahamitic religions. But it's currently very hard to do with Islam -- it usually ends up doing more harm than good. Because racists and xenophobes will co-opt the criticism and use it to fuel hate against the entire group, instead of treating it as an attempt to help those oppressed by the religion. If the racists would just stop with the scare tactics and hate it would become possible for reasonable people (like socialists) to be more openly critical of the religions (while being accepting of the individuals at the same time). Now we often have to skip the criticism, which is too bad.

Regarding growth statistics; religious groups that try to boost their numbers by breeding usually fail to properly indoctrinate their children. The conversion rate to "moderate" religion or irreligion among young people in secular societies is usually very high (for example in Haredi judaism in Israel). Which might be what those older estimates totally missed.

I try to treat people with respect, not be guided by prejudice and give them benefit of the doubt. I'm not against Muslims, I'm againt Islamic ideals. The perfect solution would be assimilation of immigrants from radically different cultures, so they adopt our standards of human interaction at least when dealing with people who do not want to adhere to their worldview.
But from what I read and heard immigrants very often stick to their own societies and distance themselves from the native culture, turn to their religious gurus and don't even try to communicate much.

Socialism  encourages it in a way in some countries where for example lone mothers with multiple children are getting financial help from the government. Many Muslim wives of a single husband register as lone mothers and get enough help that the whole family doesn't have to work and interact with other people.
Maybe socialism works great in countries where poeple are honest, but in Poland we're used to everyone trying to cheat the system as much as he can (probably a relic of living under totalitarian communist rule) and I'm not surprised immigrants also try to exploit every social system possible when they have no intention of mixing with locals.
The individuals that come to Europe with the intention of taking an active and healthy part in our society are not the problem.

Then there's the problem of how people are treated in the Muslim countries, both the followers of Islam and not. This is much harder if not impossible for us to deal with.

It's hard for to separate criticism of some of their violent or hurtful deeds from the religion and in turn from their nationality, because people tend to generalize and in this case there is a strong corellation between nationality and religion and a strong causal link between religion and violence. This leads to racism which in turn makes people dismiss the whole problem as something that only racists care about.

[starsrift]

MY NAME IS NOT RIIIICK IMPORTANT





My opinion is that the devs are just making something controversial on purpose and capitalizing on what's going on in the games industry right now.  They said they just wanted to make a pure gameplay experience but from what I can tell the gameplay is extremely bland.

Are you suggesting they made this game in a handful of weeks?

[Mittens]

It's quite possible to fight against destructive religions (like Christianity and Islam)

The most egregious crimes against humanity were committed by non-religious groups & leaders (eg. Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, etc.) Arguing that religion is the cause of world violence neglects the fact that atheists & agnostics were behind the most destructive governmental / military movements in recent history.

[rj]

MY NAME IS NOT RIIIICK IMPORTANT





My opinion is that the devs are just making something controversial on purpose and capitalizing on what's going on in the games industry right now.  They said they just wanted to make a pure gameplay experience but from what I can tell the gameplay is extremely bland.

Are you suggesting they made this game in a handful of weeks?

i think he's suggesting (quite reasonably, actually) that they're capitalizing on what's going on in the games industry right now. which, i mean, i think they are.

the game is obviously birthed out of the broad climate of games and gaming as it has been for the past year and change. the trailer was obviously launched to capitalize directly on gamergate. that's i think kinda obvious

42

[Nillo]

The most egregious crimes against humanity were committed by non-religious groups & leaders (eg. Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, etc.) Arguing that religion is the cause of world violence neglects the fact that atheists & agnostics were behind the most destructive governmental / military movements in recent history.

That is true, though it could be argued that the "cult of personality" that these extreme governments adopted was itself a form of religion, with the leader of the state seen as an object of worship by their followers.

[Mittens]

the trailer was obviously launched to capitalize directly on gamergate. that's i think kinda obvious
42

I don't understand how those 2 things are related

[starsrift]

the game is obviously birthed out of the broad climate of games and gaming as it has been for the past year and change. the trailer was obviously launched to capitalize directly on gamergate. that's i think kinda obvious

I can't form a factual disagreement to your suggestion, but I'm more inclined to believe in the Occam's Razor of coincidence.

I don't understand how those 2 things are related at all

This is a pretty good point too. And I was just objecting to the idea of timing something with a long build-up so precognitively.

[TeeGee]

Hatred is in development for 3 or 4 months now, for what it's worth. I'm unsure if its devs care about #gamergate or are they even aware of it. Probably not. They do consider games to be overrun by "SJWs" and "political correctness" in general, though. They are not neo-nazi or anything like that, but they do have some ugly right-wing/nationalist sympathies.

Mostly, they want to be "so edgy and controversial, bro!", so I wouldn't dig too much into the game's "meaning". It really is just a teenage-angsty-murder-sim (for better or worse).

[bsp]

It's quite possible to fight against destructive religions (like Christianity and Islam)

The most egregious crimes against humanity were committed by non-religious groups & leaders (eg. Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, etc.) Arguing that religion is the cause of world violence neglects the fact that atheists & agnostics were behind the most destructive governmental / military movements in recent history.

Isn't it a little disingenuous to include Hitler in that list when it's pretty unclear what he actually thought? His run of power is plagued by many contradictions regarding religious views.

[Dacke]

But from what I read and heard immigrants very often stick to their own societies and distance themselves from the native culture, turn to their religious gurus and don't even try to communicate much.

...

The individuals that come to Europe with the intention of taking an active and healthy part in our society are not the problem.

You probably need to read more and better sources instead of racist scare-news. It's the racism that causes the isolation, not the other way around. It can be incredibly hard for immigrants to get a job because of racism. So if people try to get more support it's usually because they can't get jobs, not because of some nefarious plan to live in poverty using only child support. Luckily, if you give people more support and a good education they can often overcome the racism and xenophobia somewhat -- in the second and third generation of immigrants you'll basically have fully integrated members of society (if the society allows it).

You can see the same patterns among big immigrant groups through the ages. First they are generally isolated an impoverished because of differences in culture, religion, language and due to xenophobia/racism. In just a generations or two the children grow to speak the local language perfectly and largely adopt local ideals. How well they get integrated into the society depends on how well they are received. As a Polish person, I'm surprised you aren't aware of this process given the history of Polish immigration to the USA.

The most egregious crimes against humanity were committed by non-religious groups & leaders (eg. Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, etc.) Arguing that religion is the cause of world violence neglects the fact that atheists & agnostics were behind the most destructive governmental / military movements in recent history.

At the time he wrote Mein Kampf Hitler was Catholic, his rhetoric was Christian and the tradition of persecuting jews is Christian (based on BS about them "killing Jesus")¹. Even though Hitler was originally Catholic he was greatly inspired by Martin Luther, who was passionate about persecuting jews. (But I wouldn't claim that this it proves that Christianity is bad, since it was nazism and not religion that was the primary ideology.)

Agnostic atheism as a philosophical position (not to be confused with the atheist movement) is the null hypothesis, a completely neutral stance in regard to gods. Stalinism and Maoism weren't (and couldn't have been) motivated by atheism in that sense. They were ideologies unto themselves. Any ideology (religious or not) can be destructive.

But all this is completely besides the point. I was talking about patriarchal structures in Abrahamitic religions. Trying to excuse them by saying that "others things are also bad" is nonsensical. Can't we be outspoken against multiple destructive ideologies at the same time?

1. Later he had a long-term goal of getting rid of religion in favor of the nazi ideology, but he kept using religion to manipulate people.

[pottering]

It's quite possible to fight against destructive religions (like Christianity and Islam)

The most egregious crimes against humanity were committed by non-religious groups & leaders (eg. Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China, etc.) Arguing that religion is the cause of world violence neglects the fact that atheists & agnostics were behind the most destructive governmental / military movements in recent history.

Isn't it a little disingenuous to include Hitler in that list when it's pretty unclear what he actually thought? His run of power is plagued by many contradictions regarding religious views.

unless ppl are going to start arguing the superiority of western civilization, it is also disingenuous to include Mao in a argument about monotheistic religions and its critics, China has always been a Confucian state

[s0]

You probably need to read more and better sources instead of racist scare-news. It's the racism that causes the isolation, not the other way around. It can be incredibly hard for immigrants to get a job because of racism.

i don't think it's even just jobs, it's people continually making them feel unwelcome. i mean, european nationalism is still very much a thing. here in austria (but i imagine its similar most everywhere else in central europe) people who are 2nd or 3rd generation descendants of immigrants and were born and raised here are still treated as "foreigners" by the majority of "native" (for lack of better word) austrians. ppl from islamic countries (which in austria means mainly turks and kurds) tend to have it worse than e.g. people from eastern europe.

europe's treatment of refugees is even more shameful btw.

so yeah it's no wonder these people keep to themselves when most of society has a hostile attitude towards them.