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Author Topic: Indie Brawl: Items  (Read 138771 times)
Soulliard
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« on: January 24, 2009, 11:52:08 PM »

Items add some interesting variety to combat, encourage movement, and allow for some interesting battlefield control opportunities. They also allow players to do things they normally couldn't, due to balance issues. The mechanics of items create another interesting situation: the ability to knock items out of your opponents hands and take them for yourself is priceless. Finally, items allow us to include references to games that otherwise wouldn't get included in Indie Brawl.

On the other hand, items add more randomness, and benefit some characters more than others. Fighting game purists won't like their inclusion. The option to turn items off (either a specific item or items as a whole) is a necessity.

All items can be picked up by pressing the attack button, and you can only carry one item at a time. I can think of five different categories of items for Indie Brawl:
-Healing: Heals you when you pick it up.
-Effect: Pick it up, and it instantly gives your character a temporary buff, or causes some instant effect on the battlefield.
-Single Use: Pick it up to carry it around. Press the attack button at any time to use the item, which could have any number of effects.
-Thrown: Pick it up to carry it around. Press the attack button at any time to throw it. Its trajectory is based off of directional input.
-TIGBox: When thrown, summons an indie character that executes a few attacks, and then disappears. Normally, support characters can't be attacked.

You'll notice that I didn't include weapons in that list. There are two reasons for this. First, it requires more effort from the spriters, without much gain. Secondly, this homogenizes the characters' move lists, leaving each character less unique.

Healing-
Sea Loaf (Aquaria)- Restores an insignificant amount of health.
Health Pack (Liero)- Restores a moderate amount of health.
Life Toast (The Underside)- Restores a large amount of health.

Effect-
Golden Arrow (Jumper)- Grants the character the ability to triple jump.
Sea Cake (Aquaria)- Grants regeneration.
Spicy Roll (Aquaria)- The character is surrounded by small bursts of flame.
Hot Soup (Aquaria)- Boosts the character's speed and jumping ability.
Umbrella (Knytt Stories)- When picked up, it attaches itself to your back. It makes your jumping floatier.
Nanoblast (Iji)- All attacks cause an explosion, causing damage and knockback over an area.

Single Use-
Hologram (Knytt Stories)- Creates a duplicate of the character if on solid ground. The character can't be damaged until the duplicate is attacked.
Owl (Rescue the Beagles)- A fairly strong projectile.
Axe (Banana Nababa)- Thrown in an arc, it does great damage.
Rocket Propelled Chainsaw (Cortex Command)- A projectile that tears through enemies.

Thrown-
Ball (Within a Deep Forest)- An incredibly bouncy thrown item. Can hit multiple times.
Goo Ball (World of Goo)- Stuns anything it hits by wrapping it in gooey strands.
Blue Cube (Lyle in Cube Sector)- A basic thrown item.
Green Cube (Lyle in Cube Sector)- Similar to a blue cube, but it can be picked up again after it is used.
Red Cube (Lyle in Cube Sector)- An explosive thrown item.
Yellow Cube (Lyle in Cube Sector)- Releases another item when destroyed.
Sticky Bomb (Spelunky)- Explodes after a short amount of time. Sticks to whatever character or platform it hits.
Hell B-Ball (Barkley, Shut Up and Jam: Gaiden)- A bouncy item that explodes on impact with a character.
Armadillo (Armadillo Run)- A thrown item that rolls along the ground and moves through characters.
Electro Mine (Death Worm): Once it lands, it creates a field around itself in a circle, clearly visible. Any enemy moving within this field takes a small amount of damage every step.
Potion of Inversion (Mage Guild): When thrown, if it hits a player, it either heals or deals damage proportional to the character's health. A character with high health takes damage, and one with low health is healed.
Grasshopper (Liero)- A bomb that bounces around and explodes several times, before disappearing.
Golden Idol (Spelunky)- An average thrown item. When picked up, a boulder drops down from above, damaging everything in the way.
Crystal Skull (Spelunky)- When first picked up, it summons a ghost that slowly moves towards its target. If the skull is thrown at another character, or another character picks it up, the ghost changes its target to the new character. If the ghost reaches its target, it deals a lot of damage and disappears.
Crab (Cortex Command)- Walks around slowly. Can be used as a weak thrown weapon. After it lands on the ground, it goes on a short rampage, moving faster and damaging those it runs into.

TIGBox- Summons one of these characters.

Other-
Clot Crystal (Fantastic Blood Boy) - cannot be picked up or used, but simply floats in the air and drops a number of items. If a player approaches it, it will zoom away from them and bounce off walls before coming to a stop again.
Invincible Burger (The Underside) - Sits on the ground and cannot be picked up. Instead, when a player presses A near it, they will take a bite from it and regenerate an amount of health. After a while the burger disappears.
Purple Cube (Lyle in Cube Sector) - Sits on the ground for a certain amount of time. Characters can draw an infinite number of Blue Cubes from it.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 01:35:26 PM by Soulliard » Logged

William Broom
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2009, 02:43:59 AM »

Oh great! I've been waiting for this thread. Evil I've got quite a few random suggestions too, since I wrote them down obsessively whenever I thought of them.

Effect-
Red Flower (Cave Story): Temporarily puts the one who consumes it into a state where their damage and movement speed are greater, but their health slowly drains. By the time the effect ends, around 1/3 of the player's HP has been drained.
Umbrella (Knytt Stories): When picked up, it attaches itself to your back, similar to the flags that Kovski mocked up in the Interface thread. It makes your jumping floatier, and lasts until you die.
Crayon+Battery (Hermies the game): The crayon sticks out of your character's body at a random angle and vibrates, pumping in and out slightly. If it hits an enemy it will damage them and they will be knocked back. Disappears after a while.

Single Use-
Invisiblock (Catmario): When thrown, it stops almost immediately in midair and then turns invisible a moment later. When any player tries to jump up through the invisiblock, they take damage and are knocked downward. When this happens, the invisiblock is briefly revealed before breaking in two and disappearing.

Thrown-
Electro Mine (Death Worm): Once it lands, it creates a field around itself in a circle, clearly visible. Any enemy moving within this field takes a small amount of damage every step.
Metal (Clean Asia): Does not appear above the player like a normal thrown weapon. Instead, it orbits around the player. It can be fired up, down, left or right. Pressing normal attack will fire a single piece of metal, while pressing special will fire the whole cloud at once.
Potion of Inversion (Mage Guild): When thrown, if it hits a player, their health bar is inverted. If they have 70% health, they will get 30%. If they have 10%, they will get 90%. If they have 50%, nothing will change. Depending on the situation, the player can throw this at his opponent or throw it straight down to use it on himself.

Support-
Spider (Mighty Jill Off): Once thrown, it takes a moment to grow from a skull to a spider. Then it begins to float across the screen toward the nearest enemy, and will damage them if it hits. After a while it disappears.
Circuit Point (Immortal Defense): After picking it up, the player can drop two circuit points with the A button. Once the second one is dropped, a beam will extend between them and deal constant damage to any enemies passing through it. If the point is too far away, the beam will not work. To make this clear, a phantom image of the beam will appear between the player and the first point as long as he is close enough to place the second point correctly.

Other-
Clot Crystal (Fantastic Blood Boy) - cannot be picked up or used, but simply floats in the air and spawns bombs which drop down and explode. If a player approaches it, it will zoom away from them and bounce off walls before coming to a stop again.
Invincible Burger (The Underside) - Sits on the ground and cannot be picked up. Instead, when a player presses A near it, they will take a bite from it and regenerate an amount of health. After a while the burger disappears.
Cart (Gish) - The physics-based cart that Gish rides upon. In IB, it sits in place until an attack hits it, which will cause it to start rolling. As it rolls, it gathers speed. Players can ride on top of it, but if it rolls into them they will be damaged.
Cockatrice Corpse (Nethack): If a player touches this item with their body, they will be knocked back, damaged, and stunned for quite a while. However, if they hit it with an attack, it will be sent flying, and with skill it can be knocked into other players. In Nethack it actually turns things to stone, so it might be cool to give the characters a 'stoned' sprite. This wouldn't be hard to do, it could just be their hit sprite run through a greyscale filter.

Incidentally I think there are probably a lot more potentially interesting items in Nethack and roguelikes in general, since there are always a ton of items in them. And of course this is a good way to represent roguelikes because they don't translate very well to a character or stage. It would be good to ask the relevant communities for suggestions. If they're anything like the DF players they should be happy to help.
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Rostiger
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2009, 03:38:47 AM »

Sounds great an all, but I'm a bit worried about all the Cave Story stuff. First of all, we still have no kind of permission whatsoever, so we still have to count on worst-case scenario where we can't use any of it. That would be bad, but even if we got the permission, I'd be a little careful about implementing too much Cave Story into IB.
For example I think one character is enough. Currently it would be Quote, but Curly and Balrog are planned too. I'd definitely cut those two out and also only use one two Cave Story items.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I love Cave Story and have finished it a couple of times and was pretty much with the fan crowd of the beginning times, but I do think that it gets a bit too much hype. And hype has never done good to anything. It's just the same with the memes and injokes, or with music for that matter. In the beginning you like it, then it gets totally overused until you don't want to hear or see anything of it anymore and all that's left is bitter memories. Which is sad, because underneath all that hype, there is still a great original.

Also there are so many great indie games in there that we can only do the most important stuff and I think we shouldn't put too much weight on one game.

So maybe it would be good to go by this rule of thumb:
1 character per game
1 stage per character
1-3 items per character

?
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Clemens Scott
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Soulliard
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2009, 08:28:16 AM »

Great suggestions, Chutup. Now I kind of want to add a Hermies support character.
You're right about the RL items, but I was hoping that someone who's actually played the games could suggest something.

Sounds great an all, but I'm a bit worried about all the Cave Story stuff. Currently it would be Quote, but Curly and Balrog are planned too. I'd definitely cut those two out and also only use one two Cave Story items.
Most of the items from CS have pretty generic effects, so it's not like we're bound to them. Plus, since so few indie games have a large number of interesting items, there's nothing wrong with doubling up a bit in the items category.

I do agree that Curly and Balrog might work better as support characters. Cabadath, too, for that matter.

Quote
So maybe it would be good to go by this rule of thumb:
1 character per game
1 stage per character
1-3 items per character
Stages and items shouldn't be tied to characters. I don't like putting limits on items anyways. There aren't many indie games with interesting items in them, so we should take what we can get, even if that leads to lots of items from a single game.

I think that 1 character and 1 stage per game is a good guideline, especially since other characters can still fill support roles. Of course, there can be exceptions to this rule- Cabadath, in particular, I think would make a really interesting character.
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Rostiger
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2009, 09:16:24 AM »

Quote
Stages and items shouldn't be tied to characters.

That's exactly what I meant. I think it would be great if it all was mixed up a little more, but there still will be complementary items and stages to existing characters. When that is the case, the number of items and stages shouldn't be too many. For example I would only include Outer Wall and no other Cave Story level. Instead we could add a stage that is not tied to an existing character.

But I'm sorry if I'm taking this too far off topic. Back to the items! Smiley

Concerning support characters, I think we're heading pretty far out. Remember that they all need walking, jumping, idle and at least one or two attacks. In-game it would only act as a gimmick, but the effort is very high. Also I think the player could feel a little betrayed, because the characters are there, but can't be played themselves.
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Clemens Scott
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Soulliard
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2009, 09:49:52 AM »

Support characters would only need a single animation.

You haven't played Smash Bros before, so here's a video that illustrates what I mean by support characters:

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Inanimate
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2009, 10:04:07 AM »

May I suggest replacing some of these items with Bland Brand items? As in, not associted with any existing property? The SSBs games pulled this off quite well, as in MOST of their items are not tied to characters. Can we do the same here?
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Soulliard
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2009, 10:09:55 AM »

Given the option between a bland brand item and one from a game, I'd take the one from the game. It gives recognition to more games, and these items are generally more interesting.

I'm not opposed to the bland brand, though, if I can't think of a good item from an indie game to duplicate an effect.
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2009, 10:24:42 AM »

Given the option between a bland brand item and one from a game, I'd take the one from the game. It gives recognition to more games, and these items are generally more interesting.

I'm not opposed to the bland brand, though, if I can't think of a good item from an indie game to duplicate an effect.

I think Inanimate is pointing out the fact that we'd have to ask permission again for almost every single one of these, including commercial games like Castle Crashers and World of Goo. I mean, we could do it, and I'm definitely favoring game homage items over "bland brand", but we have to be aware that this is going to take a lot more effort than just saying, "Hey, here's a list of items from a bunch of popular games! Alright!".
« Last Edit: January 25, 2009, 10:52:30 AM by godsavant » Logged
Inanimate
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2009, 10:47:26 AM »

Exactly. And also, as Brain Soup pointed out, for items we cannot find a suitable game homage for.

And, just to make it so not EVERYTHING is from other games. We want some new stuff, too.

Additional:

Also, Smash Bros. has Master Hand, Final Destination... all those have become popular. They are very well liked. We want some things new too.
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Soulliard
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2009, 03:01:14 PM »

We already have permission from most of the developers. I don't think most of the others would be difficult, anyway.

Now that I have a moment, I'll try to make a more serious response to Chutup's suggestions.

Red Flower (Cave Story)- Great idea... if we can get Pixel's permission.

Umbrella (Knytt Stories)- My biggest concern is that its graphics will look funny. Otherwise, this is a good suggestion.

Crayon+Battery (Hermies the game)- Might be a bit obscure, but the idea is hilarious. We need at least one Hermies reference (either this or a support character).

Invisiblock (Catmario)- This is interesting. It might be a bit annoying, though, sort of like motion-sensor bombs. Plus, Catmario might create some IP issues.

Electro Mine (Death Worm)- Good idea.

Metal (Clean Asia)- This is really a single use item, not thrown. The ammo ought to be low enough that this isn't really a weapon. Might be a bit obscure.

Potion of Inversion (Mage Guild)- I already said this, but I love the idea.

Spider (Mighty Jill Off)- I never got that far in this game. Are the spiders that iconic?

Circuit Point (Immortal Defense)- I'm afraid I don't see how this would work within the framework.

Clot Crystal (Fantastic Blood Boy)- Seems more like an obstacle than an item. It would be really cool if this dropped other items instead of bombs. I like the idea.

Invincible Burger (The Underside)- I love it.

Cart (Gish)- I don't know about this. Might be more trouble than its worth.

Cockatrice Corpse (Nethack)- Might be difficult to make, but I think it could be worth it. I like the idea.
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godsavant
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2009, 05:20:34 PM »

Can I still call you Nightshade? It rolls off the tongue more easily. Giggle
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Soulliard
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2009, 05:36:35 PM »

Yep. I'm just trying to choose a moniker that's a little more distinct.
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PaleFox
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2009, 06:45:00 PM »

Potion of Inversion (Mage Guild)- I already said this, but I love the idea.

That's a good idea, and I think if you posted on the game's forums the dev would likely give an OK. He seems like a nice enough guy. Definitely would be an interesting item, though balancing might be an issue (never shoot the opponent and just throw a pot at him or her and win instantly! Huzzaa!).

Also, if it can be eaten entirely, shouldn't it be called the "Vincible Burger?"  Tongue
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godsavant
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2009, 06:51:18 PM »

Also, if it can be eaten entirely, shouldn't it be called the "Vincible Burger?"  Tongue

It never disappears as a result of getting 'used up', it just does so after a certain amount of time, a duration that is not affected by consumption.

I think.
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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2009, 06:59:47 PM »

There's a point in Mighty Jill Off in which you have to evade four spiders for an agonizingly long time. So I think if players came away from that game remembering only one thing, the spiders would be it.

Ideas:

Carp (Support, Dwarf Fortress): flops around for a while like a magikarp, but if it touches someone, it will latch on and do constant damage for a while.

Konrad (Support, Battle for Wesnoth): stands back and grants a "leadership bonus" to one of the players, boosting damage slightly until he takes a sufficient amount of damage.

Meatboy (Support, Meatboy): Runs around and makes everything he touches slippery.

Ring(Item, Braid): Once a player throws the ring, a field goes up that slows down your actions depending on how close you are to the ring.

Gun(Item, Karoshi): ...It's a gun.

Big Sword(Item, DROD): Powerful weapon with long reach.

Pterodactyl(Support, Dino Run): Grabs a player and flies around the top of a level for a bit, effectively removing player from the battle for a short time.

Axe (Item, Banana Nababa): allows you to throw axes in an arc above you for a short while.

Ikaruga Shield (Item, Most Shmups): Allows the player to restore health/increase power, whenever an enemy attack comes near but doesn't hit him. It could just be there for a while and go away. Or it could stay with you until you press a button to use it, releasing all the power that you stored while holding it.

If we end up deciding not to include Lemeza (La Mulana), I think we should add several of his items to the mix, like the flares and floor-sliding knives.

ALSO: GARDEN GNOME (support, Garden Gnome Carnage): ...Okay, maybe not. This is still my favorite Game Maker game of all time, though. We should include him somehow.
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Soulliard
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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2009, 07:24:16 PM »

There's a point in Mighty Jill Off in which you have to evade four spiders for an agonizingly long time. So I think if players came away from that game remembering only one thing, the spiders would be it.
Just wanted to make sure.  Gentleman

Carp (Support, Dwarf Fortress)- I don't think most people would get the reference. After all, it would just look like any other fish.

Konrad (Support, Battle for Wesnoth)- Seems a bit too similar to the hologram. Plus, it defies player expectations by being killable, unlike all other support characters. And its effect is obscure.

Meatboy (Support, Meatboy)- Great suggestion! How could I forget Meatboy?

Ring(Item, Braid)- I like the suggestion, but the engine really isn't built to handle this sort of thing.

Gun(Item, Karoshi), Big Sword(Item, DROD), Axe (Item, Banana Nababa)- No weapons, please. We don't want Kovski to have a heart attack. The axe might work as a thrown item, though.

Pterodactyl(Support, Dino Run)- Good idea. We ought to try to include a Dino Run reference somewhere.

Ikaruga Shield (Item, Most Shmups)- Might be a bit obscure, and I'm not sure how well it would work.

Items from  La Mulana- I have difficulty envisioning a scenario where we would have permission from GR3-Nigoro but wouldn't add Lameza.

ALSO: GARDEN GNOME (support, Garden Gnome Carnage)- Maybe. He could spin around in a circle or something.
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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2009, 07:38:32 PM »

I sort of want to include a Battle for Wesnoth reference somewhere, just because Wesnoth is a fairly prominent indie game. I suppose the problem is that it operates on an entirely different basis from most of the indie community. Wesnoth and Toribash are both games that appeal to strategy/fighting game fans who are bored, but not as much to the indie community as a whole. So I could understand them being left out.

Instead of the ring, which would be hard to implement, you could include some other obviously time-related item, like an hourglass, which reverses movement as though the player is going backwards in time.

The carp is the thing that immediately comes to mind when I think of Dwarf Fortress (besides temper tantrums and fiery explosions). I suppose the next most obvious item would be the booze bomb (sort of like a molotov cocktail), but I think that was already suggested for the Dwarf character? The next most obvious would be the crossbow (notorious for its ability to puncture upwards of three major organs with one bolt), but you just mentioned the no-weapons policy.

No-Weapons does limit the possibility for references somewhat. Just out of curiousity, what's the reasoning behind it? Is it because some characters are melee or ranged based already, and adding weapons would make them obsolete?
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Soulliard
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« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2009, 07:52:15 PM »

Mostly because each weapon would require at least one additional animation for each character.

It also takes away from the uniqueness of each character; the character's move list is its biggest distinguishing factor. Finally, there would need to be some way to drop the weapon, which makes the controls more complex.
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William Broom
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2009, 08:56:41 PM »

I like the idea of the carp, but they are kind of hard to distinguish as uniquely DF-related. Perhaps if they dragged the player toward the nearest edge of the stage, it would be more apparent.

Another possible DF item is a piece of refuse that spreads purple miasma across an area of the stage. Although that would be functionally very similar to the electro mine.
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