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[Netsu]

Kinda depends on the type of RPG. For western classics I like the classic manual saving most, with an autosave that kicks in every now and then (whenever you switch levels for example). But those are games where you rarely die, most of the time when I load a save it's because I fucked up a converstation or tried something stupid to see what will happen.

[s0]

I probably like how the Souls series handles it. When you die it still basically has everything remembered/saved, you don't have to watch those cutscenes or buy those items again, it just takes you back to the recent town/bonfire you were at (along with dropping those souls!).

i think that's a good model for most singleplayer gams, not just RPGs. try to only make the player repeat things that are nontrivial (for a normally skilled player) to repeat. it also increases flexbility because there's the possibility to make progress even if you die. it's one of the factors that keeps the game from being strictly about performing a particular sequence of actions perfectly.

[baconman]

Randomly generated puzzles

Well, maybe I'm tipping my hand to early, but I was working on something I call the "HIPS" system - Hint, Item, Puzzle, Solution.

The Item is the prize you get for solving the puzzle - you can exit from the "item screen" in any direction, but only enter it by completing the puzzle room.

The puzzle room is basically a lock/key mechanism forged by gameplay mechanics (think about the keys in Brogue, for instance).

The puzzle then generates a solution room with the item/gimmick necessary to solve the puzzle room - and then there's a "hint" room that just points you towards how to apply the solution to the puzzle.

The hint room a general tooltip inside flavor text - but it's specifically applied to the situation the game generates.


But I agree, putting the gameplay-influencing options within the mechanics (and at a cost/value to the player) is terrific.

[Jordgubben]

Here's another one: Game length.

Why do most (J)RPG:s feel the need to go beyond the 50 hour mark? I guess a part of the explanation is to have time to travel around the whole world map. Then on the other hand, why do we so often need to tell that particular story? The whole of story Koudelka (PS1) take stage in one mansion and during one single night. And that worked fine. How come we don't see more of these compact stories in RPG:s?

[valrus]

Another one: the mid-size interaction loop where the only real goal is "Conserve X until X replenishment site", where X is the fundamental resource, often HP.  (Fundamental in the sense that all other game resources and stats -- MP, potions, etc. -- directly or indirectly lengthen the time until it runs out.)

That is, not the core loop, but the loop one size larger than this, where you're seeing if you can stretch your X until the next town or save point or well or whatever.  I wouldn't be down on this except that we've done it ten thousand times in a hundred games, and it's not THAT interesting a mechanic; it's just watching your fuel gauge.  It's not like there's a ton of interesting choices and emergent gameplay opportunities that arise from it; it's only ever "Press on or head back?"

(What to replace it with?  Maybe just replenish everything and make the core loop genuinely challenging and interesting.  Or have resources that don't convert because they represent different approaches to challenges.  Or get rid of HP altogether and do something entirely new.)

[s0]

Here's another one: Game length.

Why do most (J)RPG:s feel the need to go beyond the 50 hour mark? I guess a part of the explanation is to have time to travel around the whole world map. Then on the other hand, why do we so often need to tell that particular story? The whole of story Koudelka (PS1) take stage in one mansion and during one single night. And that worked fine. How come we don't see more of these compact stories in RPG:s?

i think the problem is that the "core fanbase" for jrpgs DOES want long games.

another annoying trope (tho this is narrative and not mechanics related) is long and drawn out "intros"/prologues. some games take several hours(!) to introduce the central conflict of the story (doubly annoying if its just some generic "good vs evil" thing). also so many jrpgs waste time introducing the world and characters through exposition. just drop me straight into the story and explain things as u go along pls.

[Pfotegeist]

I quite like long stories. But that only goes for companies that understand the ebb and flow of a short game.

[Jordgubben]

Here's another one: Game length.

Why do most (J)RPG:s feel the need to go beyond the 50 hour mark? I guess a part of the explanation is to have time to travel around the whole world map. Then on the other hand, why do we so often need to tell that particular story? The whole of story Koudelka (PS1) take stage in one mansion and during one single night. And that worked fine. How come we don't see more of these compact stories in RPG:s?

i think the problem is that the "core fanbase" for jrpgs DOES want long games.

True. But I also think this is something that keeps a lot of people out of the genre. Theoretically the "market" for shorter (5-10 hours) JRPGs with less Grind and more Puzzle should be there.

[JWK5]

True. But I also think this is something that keeps a lot of people out of the genre. Theoretically the "market" for shorter (5-10 hours) JRPGs with less Grind and more Puzzle should be there.

If it should be there, it would be there. The problem with the shorter RPGs is that RPGs in general tend to be a very gradual climb to some epic resolution (which is part of the charm), with shorter RPGs (for example, Vagrant Story) by the time you've really carved out your place in the story the abrupt conclusion feels very deflating. It's not that there is something wrong with the long RPG, it is just that the shorter RPG is a different breed of game and needs to be approached as its own entity because it tends to cater to a different crowd.

[Jordgubben]

True. But I also think this is something that keeps a lot of people out of the genre. Theoretically the "market" for shorter (5-10 hours) JRPGs with less Grind and more Puzzle should be there.

If it should be there, it would be there.

Perhappes I should rephrase myself. Markets have two sides: supply and demand. I am the demand (please point me to good RPGs with a game length under 10h ) and I have a hard time believing that this makes me a unique little snowflake in this regard ( I enjoy RPGs and have a traditional 9-17 jobb +  1.5h commute).

So lack of demand should not be the problem. It should be abundant. Supply on the other hand is just not there. Unlike what some economist would have you believe, supply does not magically appear out of nothing just because there is a demand for it. The fact that we don't have a lot of shorter RPG:s is most likely because no one figured out how to do them well yet.

The problem with the shorter RPGs is that RPGs in general tend to be a very gradual climb to some epic resolution (which is part of the charm), with shorter RPGs (for example, Vagrant Story) by the time you've really carved out your place in the story the abrupt conclusion feels very deflating. It's not that there is something wrong with the long RPG, it is just that the shorter RPG is a different breed of game and needs to be approached as its own entity because it tends to cater to a different crowd.

I agree that both rulesets and themes would have to change a lot. Focus would have to shift (both in story and mechanics) from character empowerment to character relations. Away from the epic "larger than life" quest to something more personal or though provoking. Less Peter Jackson, more Christopher Nolan.

Ironically this would probably line up well with the intended demographics. The traditional long RPG is aimed at the age 15-25, a time where our daily lives revolve around growing up and explore the world. So games with epic quest s and large worlds are a perfect fit. It's also an age in where time is in relative abundance compared to post graduate life of work and family. So game length is a non issue. The short RPG would be played by older gamers with less time. It would have to provide an experience relevant to a mature audience, since they would be the once who actually played it.

[gunswordfist]

i don't like most action games that are under 15 hours. i think i'd go crazy if i played a rpg that short.

[SundownKid]

Here's another one: Game length.

Why do most (J)RPG:s feel the need to go beyond the 50 hour mark? I guess a part of the explanation is to have time to travel around the whole world map. Then on the other hand, why do we so often need to tell that particular story? The whole of story Koudelka (PS1) take stage in one mansion and during one single night. And that worked fine. How come we don't see more of these compact stories in RPG:s?

I like long games. What I dislike is unnecessarily padded games. Some PS2 stuff was pretty bad in that regard, adding tens of hours of padding with a disjointed story.

Other than that the thing I hate the MOST in any RPG is the random encounter. I refuse to play games that have random encounters in them.

Also tired of western RPGs being a straight rip of the setting of Dungeons and Dragons or Lord of the Rings. Or with jRPGs, having a cliched plot about saving the world... at least one that plays it completely straight.

[s0]

I agree that both rulesets and themes would have to change a lot. Focus would have to shift (both in story and mechanics) from character empowerment to character relations. Away from the epic "larger than life" quest to something more personal or though provoking.

ya exactly. i think the last time i played a jrpg and actually took the story seriously was when i was a teen. generic "epic" plots about saving the world have been done to death and id love to see something smaller in scope. i think persona 3 and 4 maybe hint towards something like that with their limited setting (as opposed to an epic journey across the world) and dating sim mechanics. but they're still long games and u end up saving the world anyway, so not fully there yet.

mechanically i'd like to see a rpg that shifts its focus from character "growth" to character creation which would fit well with a short game. i personally wouldn't mind removing leveling and loot altogether.

[Pfotegeist]

Speaking of RPG scenarios.

Empowerment makes a teenager's fantasy come true while they're just barely able to start making choices.

Finding true companionship and starting a family is an early male adult's fantasy. Most of them won't be able to afford a bill for 3 adults and 5 bunnies though.

Aand, atm the most common early female adult's fantasy is probably to go to college. They're quite able.

So you could have Superheros, The Sims, I'm too busy to play right now - types of RPG.

[Jordgubben]

i don't like most action games that are under 15 hours. i think i'd go crazy if i played a rpg that short.

But isn't this at least partially because you paid full price (50€)? Imagine that the game was sold in 10-15h "chunks"  and every "chunk" was a lot cheaper than a full game (€ 10-15).  Every "chunk" represented a full story arch, but with the story ending with loose ends enough for a "sequel chunk". Then you could continue as long as you like, and end when you like. Wouldn't this be an option?