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[FK in the Coffee]

It's out today, and it looks like an intriguing twist on the typical war game.  Has anyone played it/want to share any thoughts on it?  The subject matter seems really conducive to discussion.

[Dragonmaw]

It's a time-management/scavenging/difficult choices game. Shares a lot in common with Project Zomboid.

It's pretty good but the world feels a little desolate for a warzone. That's my only real complaint.

[Cobralad]

From what I heard it looks more like Dayz-esque dog-eats-dogian scavenging. People are spawned at the post-apocalyptic landscape to seek canned food and planks with nails. It looks more like zombie game in that regard.
It would be more realistic if you started with all the commodities, gradually losing them.

[s0]

ok so is there anything that sets this apart from zombie survival sims other than the theme? and how well is the theme handled?

[Cobralad]

RPS comment from Sarajevo conflict survivor
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/11/18/this-war-of-mine-review/#comment-1738939

[s0]

quoting just in case

Well, as someone who has actually lived in the besieged city (Sarajevo), I can tell you they’ve portrayed some things accurate, others not so much. First of, judging by some of the pictures in the background during loading screen (UNIS Tower and Parliament, you can see it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Sarajevo), Sarajevo was definitely inspiration if not the place.

Stuff was indeed made from junk or re-purposed from other, less useful things. Most valuable commodity was not alcohol but flour, coffee, beans, powdered milk. If those were not available, people made their own substitutes. Lentil instead of beans. God, I hate lentil. All kinds of things instead of coffee. I remember my father bringing me a can of Pepsi. I looked at that thing for a week before opening and drinking it, all the while feeling sad because it was gone. There were no drunk people in those days.

Other completely unrealistic thing in this game is the night time scavenging. People did not break into houses to steal stuff. First, there was curfew in effect, and you would be liable to get shot by your own soldiers thinking you are the enemy. Second, this game portrays people as getting colder and more selfish as the time went on. It was exactly the opposite. Everyone shared everything. People helped each other in ways they would never do today. Notion that someone stole or killed from others is laughable. You have people on the hills shelling you with up to three thousand shells per day, trust me, breaking into someone’s place is the last thing on your mind. You need help. You ask, others will share. Plus, police was more effective in those days then they are today.

To conclude, this game is a different view on war. There are some mostly accurate parts. Most of it is missed by a mile. Good job on trying, but until you’ve lived through such a thing yourself, you’ll never know what it truly means to be caught in such a situation. I truly hope no one else ever does.

some of this mirrors the stories my grandmother (who lived in vienna during ww2) told me. i guess it bears remembering that cutthroat survival scenarios are actually not very realistic.

[oahda]

what
lentils are great

how can you grow up to be a spoiled brat in such an environment

[s0]

i took it more as meaning that he got sick of it having to eat it all the time

[s0]

btw here's the response from one of the devs from the same comment thread

Hi,

it’s Kacper, one of the game designers. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. We’re aware that the game doesn’t accurately portray the situation in Sarajevo, but it was never the intention. Sarajevo was one of the inspirations, but not the only – other include Chechnya, Kosovo or Warsaw after the Uprising. Unfortunately not everywhere people can count on the others like it was in Sarajevo, but we did our best not to focus exclusively on the cruelty, but to show the solidarity as well (for example it’s reflected in the premise of the game, which lets you control the whole group).

In a way we combined our knowledge about varied real events in one fictional story, where the siege escalated more than in Sarajevo, to the point of an anarchy. So the goal wasn’t to be accurate to any particular historical conflict, but to create a scenario that is probable, taking into account the means specific to the medium.

But at the same time I’d like to think that what we’ve depicted in This War of Mine is a worst case scenario…

All the best,
Kacper Kwiatkowski

[starsrift]

I was thinking of the Warsaw Uprising as well, especially the more I play it. Doesn't seem to be much tech that wouldn't be available during WWII - no computers, cell phones, etc.

I've still not run into a situation where someone hates/refuses to help me unless I steal from them, unless they're one of the fighting forces. I really don't get what the Sarajevo guy was necessarily on about, but I've only had a number of failed playthroughs and one that's close to success.

 So close.. Day 35, I survived the winter, only need a bit of food...

[Cobralad]

The main problem is that you cant make a game about lack of neccesities. It would be just characters sitting without food, electricity and water in their houses, praying that shell wont hit them. I doubt it ever would be possible to communicate discomfort and fear to a player.
That the same problem with all anti-war games and media: they rely on death shock value, sometimes scaring people with graphic imagery. That not really effective, because war usually is about sitting in a hole in a ground for two years, and sometimes you get killed. Spec Ops: The Line dev said, that he wanted to make game where you just go shoot bushes, occasionally finding bodies, but no one would give money for that.
Same here: maybe there was no scavenging/crafting in actual conflict, but you cant just make player sit for days, watching characters die.

[s0]

that's not entirely true. my grandma told me stories about having to sneak into a forest to get firewood (which was illegal) and generally sneaking around the city to avoid soldiers, so there are some "hooks" for a videogame there.

you're right tho that civilians in warzones don't have a lot of "agency" which does not necessarily mean that you can't make a good game about the subject, just that the scavenging, crafting and cutthroat survival mechanics associated with zombie and wilderness survival games are not entirely adequate. going off of my grandma's stories again, the main fears of the civilians living in the besieged city of vienna during ww2 were: having your home destroyed (and possibly getting killed) by bombs, having your home pillaged by attacking soldiers and getting food and firewood. for women, getting gang-raped by soldiers was a very real possibility too.

the thing is that, like you said, people had very little control over most of these things. your home might get hit by a bomb or it might not, you might get raped or you might not etc. the game design concept of "balance" directly contradicts this. it also contradicts the idea of "player agency". in a traditional game, you can always win/survive if you use the system to your advantage. so an adequate civilians-in-a-warzone simulator would have to be necessarily "unfair". the problem with that is ofc that most ppl would just complain about how unfair and frustrating the game is instead of empathizing with the characters.

[Cobralad]

the thing is that, like you said, people had very little control over most of these things. your home might get hit by a bomb or it might not, you might get raped or you might not etc. the game design concept of "balance" directly contradicts this. it also contradicts the idea of "player agency". in a traditional game, you can always win/survive if you use the system to your advantage. so an adequate civilians-in-a-warzone simulator would have to be necessarily "unfair". the problem with that is ofc that most ppl would just complain about how unfair and frustrating the game is instead of empathizing with the characters.

Welp, thats what i meant. There wont be any realistic anti-war game maybe ever.

[starsrift]

You could do something like the French Resistance, or similar garrisoned occupation, rather than This War of Mine's siege setting. The player can have agency over acquiring intelligence, communicating it, smuggling out fugitives. Scarcity's still an issue, curfew and other martial laws are in effect. Using the American Civil War instead could help introduce that tension-building uncertainty of "are these people -really- on my side?".

[ViktorTheBoar]

The video game must rely on the most "interesting" aspects of a situation. A lot of war is about waiting with some occasional burst of terror, or in many cases, just news of terror in some other area

[s0]

ok i just played this for the first time and it's a GOOD game but it also confirmed my reservations about the setting. it really doesn't feel very warzone like at all. it's basically a postapocalyptic survival game both mechanically and in terms of atmosphere/presentation. i actually have to continually remind myself that im not in a postnuclear wasteland or zombie infested city haha.

THAT SAID i do like that's its more "serious" in tone than your average zombie schlock survival gam and the mechanics are pretty good, particularly the streamlined crafting and builiding. i also like how it doesn't go for the usual "immersion" hooks these types of games tend to go for and doesn't try to be cinematic. its kool.

I've still not run into a situation where someone hates/refuses to help me unless I steal from them, unless they're one of the fighting forces. I really don't get what the Sarajevo guy was necessarily on about, but I've only had a number of failed playthroughs and one that's close to success.

welp it does seem to be more about individual survival (or survival in small groups rather). cooperation exists but mainly via trade and is kinda subordinate to scavenging and crafting your own shit.

[s0]

its interesting how this game conveys "moral choice" better than almost any other game and does it without being emotionally manipulative or relying on some spec ops style guilt trip.

even if its imperfect, there's a lot to like about it.

[CrayderStudios]

Really interesting points from everyone. I haven't bought the game but I've always been intrigued on how many have said This War of Mine truly immersed them in the moral complexity of choice within the game.

If anyone's interested, Gamasutra covered a story on the game and the actions taken as developers to better convey the morality of player choice: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/237940/The_secrets_behind_This_War_of_Mines_emotional_impact.php