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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperBusinessIs Kickstarter Dead?
Poll
Question: Is Kickstarter Dead?
No Way! Kickstarter is alive and Kicking
If your game is good its easy to get funded
It's oversaturated with games and difficult to get funded
Dead... Almost impossible to get funded now a days

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Author Topic: Is Kickstarter Dead?  (Read 8175 times)
Osteel
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« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2015, 12:32:33 PM »

I have some experience with Kickstarter, having been apart of a successful project that has raised over $400,000. The biggest thing we quickly learned after our Kickstarter ended was how little of the actual funding we were going to receive and I would bet a lot of projects fail to account for this.

I mean, it's known that you're not going to get 100% of it because of fees, but here's the different ones you have to consider:

1. Kickstarter (obviously)
2. Amazon (all those credit cards)
3. Paypal (transfers ... but more on this)
4. Government Taxes
5. Pledge Rewards

Paypal actually didn't even give us the money either and is currently holding it until we 'deliver the product' that the backers pledged.

After all of this, you're left with only a small percentage of the amount you think you raised. The problem is, the world still thinks you have all that money and expect you to create a product as if you had that much spend.

So in my opinion, I think people will start to catch on that Kickstarter isn't actually a viable route to go. Sure, you can get SOMETHING from it, but the post-expectations from all the backers is, in my opinion, not worth ever going with Kickstarter in the first place.

Smiley
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internationalfish
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« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2015, 06:08:00 AM »

PayPal's costs and/or withholding are NOT a cost of doing business with Kickstarter. Nor are pledge rewards. Those are both things you need to consider carefully before including either of those things in your campaign.

Maybe this is just the result of having started multiple successful businesses, but it seems very obvious to me that you need to understand exactly what your minimum bottom line will be based on the rewards you offer and the payment methods you accept and only even consider launching as such if that leaves you with a viable amount of funding.

If it doesn't, that is not a failure of the platform. That's your own failure to understand what you're doing. That it's common doesn't make it OK. Due diligence is something small projects simply cannot afford to ignore; doing so, or failing to understand what it means, is probably the largest source of failure of projects like this, anecdotally evidenced by Osteel's comment.

KS is indeed viable if you understand your requirements and Kickstarter's offering. If you don't, then you're unlikely to succeed with or without their help.
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joe_eyemobi
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« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2015, 12:56:55 PM »


• No one reads anymore (you're probably not even reading this... dammit)


Haha, no I have just read it Smiley  I'm just slower than usual with the rush that is GDC Sad

Thanks very much for sharing - this is really useful information that proves KS is far from dead.

Hey just a quick question: who did you get to do the trailer?  We're still looking for a dependable but affordable video guy who knows games to do our one for our Steam Launch.


I wrote and directed the STRAFE® spot. We worked around things we had to keep costs down... but I am a professional video director so that helped a lot. Take your time to make a spot you love because it's all some gamers will see before loving or hating your game.




Ok thanks for the tips dude - yeah the video is one of the first key things potential buyers will see so we will need to get it right for day 1.

Man check this out, here is more evidence that KS isn't dead:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/crowfall/crowfall-throne-war-pc-mmo
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notpatchman
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« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2015, 06:19:29 PM »

I'm not quite sure how Kickstarter's rankings work.  We were instantly buried to page 10 of the Video Game search results even though we raised over 10% within ~24 hours.  A *lot* of effort was put into it, and now it feels like we are drowning without much hope of getting exposure to the users there.  The search is also broken and unable to filter out punctuation.  I like Kickstarter but really think their algorithm is flawed.  We're listed under projects that have $0/0 stats for example.  It makes no sense - unless they didn't like our project and flagged us for bury.  Now we have a very tough slog ahead of us to make up for it.

Also projects that still have 20+ days ahead of them with >100% funding are keeping their staff-pick pin-to-tops.  Shouldn't those get removed so others can have a chance to reach users?
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« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2015, 01:33:09 AM »

Crowfall had excellent pre-launch marketing build up. The graphs for Crowfall shows overperformance in the $200 to $500 range (The early-birds were attractive). The project creator account has backed over 80 campaigns. There are many tiny details that show a lot of experience about how Kickstarter campaigns work that newcomers may not recognize.

I am waiting to see how well a March 10th launch of a new Kickstarter campaign from Eric "Wingman" Peterson goes.

So far with GDC (And soon PAX) this week was a very bad time to launch or end a small Kickstarter campaign. A lot of small campaigns that were struggling experienced zero new backers yesterday. The next period of 2015 that should be this bad is around E3 in June.



Kickstarter's popularity ranking is based on the number of recent new backers. It is not based on pledge amounts. A $1 backer contributes as much to the ranking calculation as a $10 backer. This is why some campaigns are now being suspended after being caught cheating up their visibility through tens of $1 pledges from farmed accounts. A project with 20 new backers that day should find itself ranked higher than a campaign with 18 new backers. I do not know how ties are decided.

Those staff-pick badges are added to the project thumbnails manually by the project creator. Those projects do get to appear under the Staff Picks filter. They do not gain an artificial advantage in the normal popularity rankings. It was possible for staff (At least back in 2012) to flag campaigns to be buried and not appear in search results. I was a backer on Tentacle Bento that was flagged because of accusations of rape in that game. Patchman was not flagged. It is still listed normally.

Graphs for Don't Be Patchman show that while it covered a lot of funding distance early, it is actually not getting many small backers at the $10 and $15 tiers where it matters the most. The number of recent new backers decides its popularity ranking. These introductory rewards tiers function like a canary in a coal mine. If their growth slows then even though some larger pledges are currently still happening, it will eventually stall out if nothing is done. It had no net new backers on March 4th.

The average pledge per backer should be a bit above $20CAD for that project. It is currently at $72.59CAD which indicates a lack of the smaller backers. I've gone over the project page twice. I still do not know what the nuts-and-bolts of the gameplay are. An alternate way to describe this is that I do not see what the core gameplay loop is. Is it farming, then the office. Is the office space only an opening level that isn't returned to? Is there an overworld to navigate with a city and forest areas? Is it persistent, or is it like an RTS game where the economy/farming starts from scratch again with a new scenario? This confusion is the big obstacle I see for experienced backers pledging to this project. There are some very good looking components and overall presentation, but I don't know how they mesh together into a game. I can have brainstormed ideas for how they mesh, but these may be vastly different from the game actually being made.

I then looked at the Greenlight page and more of this missing information was found there, but still not enough. The game needs a very easy to understand elevator pitch like "Metal Gear Solid meets Harvest Moon" and that pitch needs to be presented immediately when a visitor arrives. Right now it is complicated and even though I've looked over hundreds of projects I don't know what this one is exactly trying to be. The world is pitched well. The gameplay needs to be pitched more. The rewards structure is on the scale of acceptable to good. I think the pitch is the big problem keeping it from getting backers and more coverage. Even the coverage it did get like Cliqist and GamingOnLinux don't go into the gameplay. Some games like Five Nights At Freddy's are easier to understand by watching than reading a paragraph. Interesting games can be buried under communication barriers.

Here is a way to think towards a solution. Valve's Portal game in this situation would start by explaining the mouse controls for the grab, blue portal and orange portal, then demonstrate some companion cubes in an infinitely falling loop and then being shot horizontally when a new portal is created. I can see the farming part and sticking fruit onto drones in Patchman's gameplay, but the more TheSims-like parts feel under-explained. I don't know if the office space uses a different mode. I assume coloured polygonal shapes are information being transferred, but I don't know the meaning behind each shape. With enough information, the players should be able to imagine playing the game before even having access. The Let's Play video format can help with conveying a lot of the information needed for this.

I maintain Kickstarter-related forum threads on places like Pixelscopic and Infinitap's forums. Most projects get two sentences for me to describe them. If I had to make a post including Don't Be Patchman I would be struggling to decide how to summarize it. I could say "It has some good pixel art and a great sense of energy in the video" but that isn't actually describing the "Play" part of "Gameplay".

Project creators should be recording the changes in the number of pitch views in the creator dashboard. That number can indicate if a campaign is buried, not converting many visitors into backers or both. It could have taken about 2,000 to 4,000 views to have achieved that much progress. The Bitly Analytics currently shows 73 shortlink clicks for Patchman.



The graphs for STRAFE show many indicators of problems with the up-selling in the rewards. It is really concentrated with backers stuck in the lower priced end of the rewards structure. Even before looking at the reward text, the $45 tier being capped creates a big hole between the $25 and $50 tiers that prevents many backers from raising their pledges. Because the campaign was able to eventually brute force itself across 100% funded, even with severe problems with the rewards, may be due to almost every other aspect of the campaign's execution looking well done.

I was watching STRAFE closely on February 1st because so few campaigns survived after slashing the price for the reward tier that introduces a copy of the game. I was impressed how the $15 tier's cannibalization of the $25 tier was not as bad as it could have been. I've seen campaigns implode where almost all positive momentum was neutralized by existing backers downgrading. This may be due to the soundtrack. The $25 tier had the soundtrack while the later $15 tier did not have the soundtrack. If the inserted $15 tier included all the content from the $25 tier, the campaign may have doomed itself to cannibalization because there would be less incentive to stay at the $25 tier. Luckily this did not sink the campaign.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 01:38:42 AM by LobsterSundew » Logged

xier
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« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2015, 04:06:53 PM »

Wow fantastic information here guys, thank you all so much for sharing.

I'm curious - Glutronics (or anyone else with a successful kickstarter), could you please speak about "PayPal holds onto funds until you "deliver the product"" point?

Is this true? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of getting funds from the platform in the first place?
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Gluntronics
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« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2015, 08:56:32 PM »

Wow fantastic information here guys, thank you all so much for sharing.

I'm curious - Glutronics (or anyone else with a successful kickstarter), could you please speak about "PayPal holds onto funds until you "deliver the product"" point?

Is this true? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of getting funds from the platform in the first place?

Kickstarter changed their means of payment a day before we went live. They no longer accept paypal or Amazon Payments from what I can tell it's only cards. So we didn't accept paypal until the KS was closed so we wouldn't have to worry about refunds. Now we are taking paypal but since we heard tales of the holds we are withdrawing the money every week. Hasn't been a problem yet.
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xier
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« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2015, 09:19:16 PM »

Oh wow thanks for that. Just saw that point and was like .. wtf? but yea. the change in the payment system might be better for mass appeal opposed to having to sign up for a paypal?
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« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2015, 11:05:19 PM »

I think a lot of it has to do with consumer perspective on the crowdfunding idea. When the idea was first released there weren't a lot of controls nor was there experience in how crowdfunding could go wrong (projects misusing funds etc) so it was a booming market. If you recall the golden age in Kickstarter was 2012, where tons of games were getting funded and not a lot of them released. These days, consumers are less inclined to back as they either are more skeptical of the process or the games they funded back in 2012/2013 haven't been released yet, so they're thinking "I want to play the games I've funded 2 years ago before funding any other projects", which is a fair point.

Like everyone else on this topic has been saying, I definitely wouldn't say that Kickstarter is dead, but I would say that you have to be a lot more careful with how you approach crowdfunding now as compared to 3 years ago. As with any matured market, consumers are harder to impress and they are smarter with their choices.
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« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2015, 10:32:08 AM »

Somehow everyone forgets that when Kickstater is launched by someone with a name, chance are pretty high that funding will go over the set goal. If someone with a big name supports unknown project, chances are pretty high to hit the goal. However, if an unknown studio comes out with a decent project (or even a good one) and their goal is set realistically high (talking about north american devs), chances to fail are high.

It's all about having a name or having connections, because that what brings user base to the project.
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« Reply #50 on: March 11, 2015, 01:25:35 AM »

Oh wow thanks for that. Just saw that point and was like .. wtf? but yea. the change in the payment system might be better for mass appeal opposed to having to sign up for a paypal?

I don't believe Kickstarter ever used PayPal.
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« Reply #51 on: March 11, 2015, 12:15:23 PM »

Osteel said:

Quote
Paypal actually didn't even give us the money either and is currently holding it until we 'deliver the product' that the backers pledged.

So at one point I guess they did?
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« Reply #52 on: March 11, 2015, 12:40:40 PM »

Kickstarter has never accepted Paypal. Some people run simultaneous pages where you can contribute separately with paypal since paypal is so common, but that doesn't go towards the actual "kickstarter" total, but still helps funding.
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« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2015, 12:52:30 PM »

Ah ok, that makes sense. Thanks for clarification
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« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2015, 01:31:36 PM »

Some of the bigger examples of crowdfunded games that had PayPal funds frozen were Skullgirls, Dreamfall Chapters and Yatagarasu. If the developer is famous enough PayPal will unfreeze the funds to avoid the greater costs of further bad PR. It used to be large crowdfunding projects that PayPal froze because of how large the fund transfers were, but since late 2014 I have been hearing more about PayPal deciding to initially freeze 50% of the funds even for small projects.

One of the reasons people were attracted to PayPal was the buyer protection. For sellers it has been a rougher experience. PayPal has to be a bit paranoid if it wants to stay profitable. People who pledged to a project through the PayPal option pursued chargebacks after the fulfilment imploded. PayPal didn't like this and started to experiment with new policies about risk.

As cynicalsandel posted, Kickstarter's platform has never used PayPal but developers setup their own web store. Kickstarter previously used Amazon Payments and then migrated to Stripe when Amazon discontinued the specific payment feature Kickstarter was using. One of the advantages Kickstarter had over IndieGoGo was the all-or-nothing funding model that uses pre-authorized transactions. No funds get transferred unless the minimum goal was met, so no need for refund fees to eat away at the money.

PayPal is often requested by European gamers. Many Europeans do not use credit cards and only some types of debit cards work. Pre-paid credits cards can be more of a hassle too. International backers are often more familiar with using PayPal. A recent example of a project that added PayPal support was Underworld Ascendant. Some may remember when

.

Adding a PayPal link to the project before 100% funded or before the project at least looks guaranteed to succeed is potentially going to scare away some Kickstarter regulars. It clashes with the all-or-nothing spirit of Kickstarter.
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« Reply #55 on: March 21, 2015, 11:14:07 PM »

I have been researching kickstarter and crowdfunding off and on for about a year and I would say that Kickstarter is very much alive and thriving. However, the game you promote on Kickstarter must have potential, a solid demonstration video, and (among other things) rewards with for people to buy that don't cost too much to obtain.

Most importantly your video will either make or break the campaign you're running. Kickstarter is full of video game campaign's with videos that appear to be absolutely bland and dull, others made by complete rookies, and others in which the game looks promising, but yet the video never gets to the point.

Your game may be the most exciting one made in years, but if your promotional video is not equally exciting. Your campaign is liable to fall flat. It's all in the video...to an extent.
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