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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperPlaytestingWIP shmup - brutal criticism requested! (update 4)
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Author Topic: WIP shmup - brutal criticism requested! (update 4)  (Read 3161 times)
FailFaster
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« on: December 07, 2014, 08:24:42 PM »

You can play it here:  http://failfaster.itch.io/wip-shmup-demo  It won't take long.

Let me know what could be done better, okay?  Go ahead and just rip it apart.  It's the only way I'll improve.

Thanks!

« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 07:01:42 AM by FailFaster » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2014, 09:26:11 PM »

It's terrible. So terrible that I couldn't even play it. Ugh.

Brutal enough for you? I actually couldn't play it because the link you gave was broken.  Corny Laugh  Looking at the main failfaster.itch.io page, there weren't any links to a game either.

I'd recommend putting a screenshot or two here to attract people. Also note that the forum guidelines ask people to introduce themselves in "The Obligatory Introduce Yourself Thread" before posting here.
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2014, 12:24:49 AM »

Terrible Game of cut n paste a URL that doesn't go anywhere!
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2014, 04:09:26 AM »

Oh, whoops.  How about I make that page Public and we try that again?

See?  These are exactly the sorts of game-breaking bugs a dev needs a fresh pair of eyes to spot.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 04:47:48 AM by FailFaster » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2014, 09:39:28 AM »

I don't like the mouse controls. Especially because it's such a tiny window in my browser. It just puts me off that I can see the ship and the mouse cursor moving simultaneously, know what I mean? But I guess it's alright if this is gonna be on android.
Also, why is the text soooo blurry in-game? It's so blurry in fact, that I wasn't able to read it.
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2014, 01:04:45 PM »

The text isn't that blurry for me. I wonder what the difference is.

Anyway, this seems like a good start. I normally avoid shmups these days because most seem to be bullet-hells when I enjoy the ones that are more like Tyrian or Raptor: Call of the Shadows. This is more my style.

That said, the two main things that I enjoy about shmups (which might seem weird) are the environments and the enemy variety. I like to feel like I'm going somewhere, not just sitting on a looping background. It's enjoyable to see new parts of a level. Experiencing different dangers, enemy designs and enemy movement patterns as I get farther seems important too.

Secondary weapons might be nice, but I guess maybe they'd be tricky to implement using simple touch controls.
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2014, 02:00:52 PM »

I don't like the mouse controls. Especially because it's such a tiny window in my browser. It just puts me off that I can see the ship and the mouse cursor moving simultaneously, know what I mean? But I guess it's alright if this is gonna be on android.
Also, why is the text soooo blurry in-game? It's so blurry in fact, that I wasn't able to read it.

I'll see what I can do to improve the web version's inputs a little bit before the next version.  The text might be blurry because it's being displayed at 1/2 the standard size.  I did this because fill-rate was my limiting factor on PC so I published it at half-size so more people could play it.  On my test device (which apparently has a better fillrate than my computer) it runs smoothly at full-size.

The text isn't that blurry for me. I wonder what the difference is.

Anyway, this seems like a good start. I normally avoid shmups these days because most seem to be bullet-hells when I enjoy the ones that are more like Tyrian or Raptor: Call of the Shadows. This is more my style.

That said, the two main things that I enjoy about shmups (which might seem weird) are the environments and the enemy variety. I like to feel like I'm going somewhere, not just sitting on a looping background. It's enjoyable to see new parts of a level. Experiencing different dangers, enemy designs and enemy movement patterns as I get farther seems important too.

Secondary weapons might be nice, but I guess maybe they'd be tricky to implement using simple touch controls.

Funny you should mention Tyrian, because I'm planning on having upgrades you can buy between levels to improve your weaponry.  One-button touch controls are indeed limiting, but I have lots of ideas for later on in the game.  More enemy and background variety is on the way, this is just the starting point.  If I ever go bullet-hell, it'll probably be either in a separate mode, or else very late in the game it'd gradually build up to it.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2014, 03:47:51 PM by FailFaster » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2014, 04:54:51 PM »

I forgot to mention a bug I noticed. Sometimes certain enemies shoot horizontally for some reason.

If you're curious this is how the text looks to me. It's certainly not sharp, but it's still legible. (Also note that I died on purpose for the shot below. I'm not that bad at this game.)

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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2014, 05:07:34 PM »

I need to tweak those side-shooters a bit.  The idea was that they fly straight down and fire to the side.  Maybe I need to make them faster, maybe I just need to spawn two at once so you can't kill them both before they fire.  I'm open to suggestions.  But the general idea is the penalty for not killing each of the enemy types before they can fire is different.
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2014, 06:02:48 PM »

I need to tweak those side-shooters a bit.  The idea was that they fly straight down and fire to the side.  Maybe I need to make them faster, maybe I just need to spawn two at once so you can't kill them both before they fire.  I'm open to suggestions.  But the general idea is the penalty for not killing each of the enemy types before they can fire is different.

I never saw them fly low and shoot sideways. They always seemed to do it near the top of the screen and were dead before they could fire again. The idea of making them rush down and fire sideways sounds good if you get it working well.
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2014, 07:46:44 PM »

Updated, see link in OP for latest version.
  • Side-shooting enemies tweaked to present more of a threat.
  • Mouse movement improved.  Relationship between mouse movement and ship movement should be 1:1 (after taking into account distortion caused by 3D perspective, of course.)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2014, 03:10:06 PM by FailFaster » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2014, 11:06:22 AM »

Well, I'm gonna start with the positives now. Wait no, scratch that, this game has problems I really want to discuss more than the explosion sounds. Fuck this game, it's a piece of shit that was shoved up an alien spaceship's ass on a motorcycle.

The ship follows my mouse pretty badly. My mouse is about 10 cm away from the ship and is controlling the ship from there instead of, well, on the ship. I noticed that it happens because the ship follows the mouse when it goes down, but doesn't go as fast as the mouse, creating a gap, which gets larger the more I play. I got the footage here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0TS7CMKvmI&feature=youtu.be

The shooting works fine. It's auto-fire, and that's something I like. I mean, why do I have to spam the A button to shoot instead of just doing it the whole time? This mashing doesn't add to the fun and carpal tunnel syndrome. However, this game doesn't have simple firing. The ship fires a burst of 4 shots, then does nothing for a while. I would rather have the option to choose when to fire and not to fire, because sometimes, I just shoot projectiles into nothing, then the enemies actually come, but I have to charge. A bar showing me how much time I need to wait before getting my burst would be useful too. I know you're designing this for phones, but if PC can have the option to be better at controlling the game, let it. Or you could design the game a different way and add in auto firing where it just shoots a projectile every 10 milliseconds without the cooldown.

I didn't understand that the green thingies were pickups at first, I thought they were bombs you had to avoid. You can put some small story segment before the game to explain how the green crystals give you the power to... Eehh? What do they even do? I'd like to have that explained, too.
"The gems you collect aren't used for anything." Oh screw you.

Also arrow keys controls for PC for those who want that

This game has positives? I thought this game was poopy diarrhea shit dog biscuit fart suck fucking piece of ech, but ok.
I like the graphics, and the way they're used. I can instantly recognize an enemy from a gem because they look different. The sound effects go well with the visuals and explosions, the enemies are satisfying to kill. The core mechanic, shooting doods, works great. It's just that THE MOUSE. WHAT. PLEASE BE NORMAL.
Have fun making the game, looking forward to seeing this game get more content over time. Also you have a good name.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 11:53:18 PM by ActionGamemaster » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2014, 11:32:50 AM »

I guess ActionGamemaster took your request for "brutal" feedback seriously. Wow.  My Word!

Anyway, I don't have any trouble controlling the game but I do agree that having the ship not move at exactly the same speed as the mouse/finger of the player could cause issues. On a computer, hiding the cursor would probably be enough. On a touch device, you'd just be stuck with a ship that's never going exactly where you expect it to and that wouldn't be great.

I'd also recommend different colors or something for the enemy types until you can make more models for them all. It would be nice to be able to see an enemy coming and instantly have an idea of how they're going to act if you've played before. I do really like the increased variety of behaviors in the game now. It's much more enjoyable than before.
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« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2014, 11:51:25 PM »

Oh, sorry, here's the video showing the mouse glitch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0TS7CMKvmI&feature=youtu.be
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« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2014, 07:04:01 AM »

First of all, let me just thank you for taking me at my word.  Not everyone here realizes just how valuable feedback like your post can be.  I will happily endure a couple sentences worth of of hyperbolic swearing to get at the paragraph after paragraph of genuinely helpful criticism here.

The ship follows my mouse pretty badly. My mouse is about 10 cm away from the ship and is controlling the ship from there instead of, well, on the ship. I noticed that it happens because the ship follows the mouse when it goes down, but doesn't go as fast as the mouse, creating a gap, which gets larger the more I play. I got the footage here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0TS7CMKvmI&feature=youtu.be

I should explain.  You might know that the game is designed for mobile.  It used to be that when you clicked the Start button, the player's ship was directly under the mouse.  On mobile, this resulted in a game where the shots were coming out of your fingertip and you couldn't really see your ship, and in particular anything down and to the right of your ship (or left, if you happen to be left-handed) was covered up by part of your hand.  

Some shmup developers on mobile, such as Cave, solve this problem by putting a large circular force-field around your ship, making you more visible, but essentially making your ship a larger target with a big round hitbox.  (In the player's mind, if not physically.)  In general, I'm not a fan of that solution.  It has ramifications for gameplay that I don't like.

So instead, I just moved the ship up a bit.  Now when you're dragging your finger on the screen to control the ship, you can still actually see your ship and enemy bullets on all sides of it, all the time.  It's basically the way I already play Abyss Attack on mobile.  (And why the "speed increase" relics are a cruel joke in that game.)

The gap increase over time occurs when you move the mouse cursor further than the ship can go.  The workaround is to watch the ship and not watch your mouse/finger.

Now, that was the headspace I was in when I was designing the game for mobile and then hastily porting it to Unity's web player to get it into some strangers' hands.  However, after reading your post, I now realize what should have been obvious: that the solution I came up with for mobile is completely inadequate for the web.  I should be hiding and centering the cursor, at the very least.  If you have any specific suggestions for how to improve the inputs on the web version of the game, please do post them here.

The shooting works fine. It's auto-fire, and that's something I like. I mean, why do I have to spam the A button to shoot instead of just doing it the whole time? This mashing doesn't add to the fun and carpal tunnel syndrome. However, this game doesn't have simple firing. The ship fires a burst of 4 shots, then does nothing for a while. I would rather have the option to choose when to fire and not to fire, because sometimes, I just shoot projectiles into nothing, then the enemies actually come, but I have to charge. A bar showing me how much time I need to wait before getting my burst would be useful too. I know you're designing this for phones, but if PC can have the option to be better at controlling the game, let it. Or you could design the game a different way and add in auto firing where it just shoots a projectile every 10 milliseconds without the cooldown.

I think I may actually change the design of the game.  The concept of burst-fire is an old one dating back to games so old they literally could only store so many player bullets in memory at once.  It's not all bad.  There's a kind of rhythm you can get into, scooting under a target, waiting for the burst, then flying off to the next spot.  But it's not at all intuitive for new players.  So, you're right.  The player's default weapon should be as simple to use as possible.  Once I get weapon upgrades in there, maybe I'll make some of the optional late-game weapons fire in bursts.

I didn't understand that the green thingies were pickups at first, I thought they were bombs you had to avoid. You can put some small story segment before the game to explain how the green crystals give you the power to... Eehh? What do they even do? I'd like to have that explained, too.
"The gems you collect aren't used for anything." Oh screw you.

You're gonna use those to buy upgrades eventually.  You're completely right that they need to be better-explained.  I don't really have anything else to say.  The upgrade system isn't done yet.  The collection mechanic is.

Also arrow keys controls for PC for those who want that

I can add arrow controls, but I can't completely re-balance the gameplay around them.  Mouse/touch is where this game lives.  Move a little, get a little.  Move a lot, get a lot.  I'll happily put arrow keys in, but they'll never be quite as sensitive or subtle as mouse control.  I'm just saying that up front right now.  Even analogue sticks would translate better than a keyboard's binary inputs.

Seriously, thanks for your post.   Smiley  You've drawn my attention to some legitimate issues that I was pretty much either blind to or else glossing over.  Stuff that we really all should know by heart by now, such as: Make your inputs intuitive; Keep your core mechanic simple, especially at the start of the game; There's no excuse for a half-assed port, etc.  

Also, glad you liked the handle.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 07:44:46 AM by FailFaster » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2014, 07:58:15 AM »

I guess ActionGamemaster took your request for "brutal" feedback seriously. Wow.  My Word!

Nah, it's cool.  He knew exactly what I was going for, and his delivery was funny, to boot.

Anyway, I don't have any trouble controlling the game but I do agree that having the ship not move at exactly the same speed as the mouse/finger of the player could cause issues. On a computer, hiding the cursor would probably be enough. On a touch device, you'd just be stuck with a ship that's never going exactly where you expect it to and that wouldn't be great.

I'd also recommend different colors or something for the enemy types until you can make more models for them all. It would be nice to be able to see an enemy coming and instantly have an idea of how they're going to act if you've played before. I do really like the increased variety of behaviors in the game now. It's much more enjoyable than before.

I was using unfiltered mouse input because people always seem to end up complaining if you filter it, but in retrospect I can see how that's a mistake when the mouse cursor is visible alongside the object you're controlling.  I agree that hiding the mouse will help.  On a touch device, (or at least on my test device,) the relationship between finger movement and ship movement is 1:1.  You're less likely to go off the edges of your dvice than you are the edges of a window in a web browser, and you can pick up your finger and put it back down directly on the ship, if you like.

None of what I just said excuses a shoddy browser port, of course.  My goal with the port was to make the mouse control "feel" as much like the touch-control as possible.  If you're noticing the edges of the screen, clearly I haven't succeeded yet.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 12:08:32 PM by FailFaster » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2014, 05:03:00 PM »

Updated 2014-12-18
  • Fixed some problems under-the-hood with mouse logic.  Mouse cursor should now generally be hidden while gameplay is active.
  • Press P or Esc to pause and unpause.  Clicking while unpaused now re-hides the mouse cursor.
  • Clickable pause button now completely removed from UI in non-mobile builds of the game.
  • The player's default weapon now fires continuously.  (Note: enemy health was not changed.)
  • "Pew pew pew" sounds removed from player's weapon (it was getting too annoying)
  • "Pew pew pew" sounds added to enemy weapons.  (IMHO this improves gameplay by giving you an aural cue when the enemy attacks.)
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 03:37:04 PM by FailFaster » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2015, 03:35:48 PM »

Updated 2015-01-19
  • First look at the new weapons system.  The game auto-equips you with three random weapons each time you play.  Later on, you'll be able to buy new weapons, but the whole shop/inventory menu system isn't ready yet.
  • Enjoy the new background, a lush green planet's surface.  (Sorry, no new enemies yet.)
  • Sound menu replaced with Options menu, now featuring a control sensitivity slider.  Mousepad users rejoice!
  • Made the pause code simpler and more robust.  Hopefully this fixes the rare bug where enemies could spawn just as the player presses pause and not be paused themselves.
  • Disabled all restraints (that I am aware of) on mouse movement.  Thanks to  Ixmucane2 at System11.org for suggesting this.  Laptop mousepad users are encouraged to turn the sensitivity way down in the options menu.  Like, 5% or lower!

« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 07:02:41 AM by FailFaster » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2015, 07:01:18 AM »

Updated 2015-02-8  Click to play!
  • A basic in-game loot system has now been implemented.  You start with a pea-shooter.  Destroy enemies, collect gems, and use them to buy new weapons for your ship.  Think Raptor: Call of the Shadows meets Diablo, kinda.  This is not even remotely balanced yet.  More work on this soon.
  • Arrow keys are now the default input mechanism for web browsers.  Keyboard inputs are processed raw, without any type of smoothing, and physics are disabled for tight, snappy movement.
  • All enemies now drop gems, not just asteroids.  I guess instead of mining for a resource, you're collecting crystal fragments of some kinda power core?  Whatever.  It's a game.
  • Minor graphics and menu improvements.  Gem collectibles now more closely match the menu icon.  Options menu is now available from the pause screen and pretty much everywhere else in the game.

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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2015, 07:15:23 PM »

The game takes forever to load, longer than practically anything else I've played in recent memory. You should maybe try to shrink the file size somehow. The movement feels a little too abrupt, starting and ending too soon. I liked the text at the end of each attempt, that was a nice little personal touch. I think if you want to polish it more, you should start with making the ship have an animation when it's idle. It doesn't make sense that a ship flying in the sky should be standing absolutely still.
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