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891584 Posts in 33552 Topics- by 24788 Members - Latest Member: DonnieHill

June 20, 2013, 03:05:52 AM
TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralWhat are you reading?
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Author Topic: What are you reading?  (Read 100366 times)
Capntastic
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« Reply #1215 on: March 23, 2012, 11:44:30 PM »

I see only one person making sweeping truth claims here. No, I'm not going to defend "his" claims, because he isn't making them to begin with.

Saying that atheists need religion to be consistently moral and integrate properly into communities are pretty hefty truth claims-- how could you honestly not see that?  You keep saying I don't understand his arguments, and then go on to say what you think they are (morality reinforcement being based in emotional states, as an example, which in of itself is an even larger truth claim), without having read the book--  I was prepared to lend an ear to your clarifications of his arguments, assuming that you'd read the book.  Since you haven't, we're pretty much forced to agree to disagree, but considering I've had three separate friends, the opinions of whom I trust in matters like this, express frustration at the author's baseless presumptions about atheism-as-a-whole and 'what it needs', I really see no reason to give the book the benefit of the doubt.

~~~

If we're going to suggest books that should appeal to people interested in Dawkins or whatever, I'll put forth "True to Life:  Why Truth Matters" by Michael P. Lynch, and something I've actually read.  It provides a very clear overview on the nature of truth, and why truth in its own right is an inherent good.  Truth, being central to belief, and thus action, is something one should take care to comprehend and 'get right'.  It's brisk, short, easy enough to understand for the layman.  It cuts straight to the heart of postmodern reasoning, and several 'objective' truth views that collapse into subjectivism when strained through their own logic- specifically various blends of pragmatism.

If you want to sink your teeth into more readily applicable sociological/psychological issues pertaining to "why are people so damned crazy and dumb sometimes", Bob Altemeyer's "The Authoritarians" is what you need.  Bob's a very cool dude, and has a very relaxed, and often humorously conversational tone, despite the immense gravity of his work.  Put short, there are specific personality types that have a strong tendency towards mob styled thinking, othering, and us vs them mentality.  Further, there are other types of peoples, social dominators, who have personalities almost made to take advantage of this.  There is a lot of data that Altemeyer has collected over the years detailing the nuances of these types of minds:  a strong compartmentalization of ideas, allowing easy access to completely disparate beliefs without any realization of the conflict.  It explains doublethink, more or less, both in people who don't realize they are utilizing it, and in those who are perfectly fine with acting counter to their own stated beliefs.  There is a very interesting, albeit non-entirely-scientific section where, through the years with various classes, he's secretly held a sort of United Nations roleplaying game, with groups of all Authoritarian type personalities, and groups of all non-Authoritarian types, and the absolutely huge disparity of how they handle 'disaster' situations, trade, etc, is despairing, given the implications of how the mindset affects, say, the real world.
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C.D Buckmaster
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« Reply #1216 on: March 24, 2012, 12:41:17 AM »

I really need to stop getting so many Kurt Vonnegut novels, they're making me too cynical.
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leonelc29
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« Reply #1217 on: March 26, 2012, 11:28:50 PM »

Lord of the Flies. I'm like 58 years late, and probably my first literature that didn't forced to buy and read.
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Derek
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« Reply #1218 on: March 27, 2012, 12:16:25 AM »

Altered Carbon. Quite a fun cyberpunk novel so far!



(Cyberpunk/sci-fi books have the worst covers in the US.)
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saibot216
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« Reply #1219 on: March 27, 2012, 01:50:15 AM »

Ian McEwan's Saturday.
This book... ugh...
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brettchalupa
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« Reply #1220 on: March 27, 2012, 05:34:13 AM »

Not to be boring, but I've been reading a book called HTML & CSS: Designing and Building Websites. I never had a real foundation to either of them, as I learned simply through looking at website sources and google, so it's been really helpful to read and have a better understanding behind both of them!
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« Reply #1221 on: March 27, 2012, 02:47:43 PM »

Yo, friends! I need your help!

I am trying to get my friend into sci-fi, but the problem is, I am uh... not a sci-fi person! The extent of my forays into the field is "I, Robot" (which I've already given them), "The Three Stigmata of Palmer Eldritch" (comin' up), and "Rendezvous with Rama" (also coming up)

My friend so far has dipped their toes a bit into soft cyberpunk, but I don't want to shock 'em by diving straight into the more heavy stuff! You guys got any good recommendations?
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Derek
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« Reply #1222 on: March 27, 2012, 02:52:53 PM »



The Foundation series and maybe Ender's Game.
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Capntastic
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« Reply #1223 on: March 27, 2012, 02:54:01 PM »

THAT HACK Arthur C Clarke's 2001 Space Odyssey and none of the ones past it, Asimov's Foundation Trilogy (or just the first book), Ray Bradbury's Martian Chronicles, and Frank Herbert's Dune.  Those four should give someone a solid basis for figuring out what they 'enjoy' about scifi.

What Cyberpunk did they dip into?  

Edit:  Beaten by Derek but only slightly, since he suggested Ender's Game which should disqualify him.
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Derek
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« Reply #1224 on: March 27, 2012, 03:09:46 PM »

What's wrong with Ender's Game?! Crazy

But yeah, Foundation is a great one to start with, because it has some extremely interesting, futuristic concepts in it and it's not so much focused on the super technical stuff or "world-building" (e.g. intricate explanations about how some alien species recycles fluids from their space diapers). I think the latter is what puts people off of fantasy and sci-fi a lot of times.
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« Reply #1225 on: March 27, 2012, 03:15:42 PM »

that and the lack of probability of anything in the book actually happening.
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« Reply #1226 on: March 27, 2012, 03:27:15 PM »

What's wrong with Ender's Game?! Crazy

Quite a bit. Orson Scott Card is pretty well known to have ridiculously hateful views, specifically about homosexuals and how he sees them as basically subhuman.

But pushing all that aside, he's not really that great of a writer.  I used to play a game with my writing friends by rolling dice and getting random page/paragraphs to read and skewering the incoherent tense-shifts, pov-shifts, and similar.  There's one paragraph in particular that was just nonsense, but since I can't recall I've selected a line at random that lacks any subtlety at all.  

Quote
Bernard went red with anger.  "Who did this!" he shouted.

He might as well have written
Quote
Bernard was getting mad.  "I am mad!" he shouted, angrily.
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Derek
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« Reply #1227 on: March 27, 2012, 03:33:43 PM »

Yeah, Scott Card's a tool. But Ender's Game is still a great story, imo.

It wouldn't be the first time the creator of a book or something I liked turned out to be a massive tool (cough Frank Miller cough).

EDIT: What's the TL;DR on this paper? http://www4.ncsu.edu/~tenshi/Killer_000.htm
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Capntastic
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« Reply #1228 on: March 27, 2012, 03:45:30 PM »

Found the paragraph, it's from page 5 of all places.

Quote
Ender smiled.  He was the one who had figured out how to send messages and make them march--even as his secret enemy called him names, the method of delivery praised him.  It was not his fault he was a Third.  It was the government's idea, they were the ones who authorized it-- how else could a Third like Ender have got into school?  And now the monitor was gone.  The experiment entitled Andrew Wiggin hadn't worked out after all.  If they could, he was sure they would like to rescind the waivers that had allowed him to be born at all.  Didn't work, so erase the experiment.

This paragraph has so many things just slammed into it to the point of sounding intense but really just being a heap of shit.  

1.  Ender is smiling at a computer terminal messing with marquee text.  
2.  People are calling him names with the marquee text but he doesn't mind.
3.  Now either Ender is moping about being a Third OR the omniscient narrator is explaining that it isn't his fault, and trying to convince us that people who hate him for it are evil.
4.  Brings up his monitor implant being removed for some reason.
5.  Either the prose here is Ender's own internal moping OR the omniscient narrator is facetiously moping for the reader that poor Andrew/Ender Wiggin is a failed experiment and should be erased, boo hoo.

The paragraph literally starts with Ender smiling about something and then the prose goes off to mope about how bad things are for him and how nobody likes him, everybody hates him, he's so benign and pure and didn't want any of it.

As for the "Innocent Killer" paper, it's basically explaining how every event in the story is to remind us, the reader, that Ender kills people because he's so pure and good and everyone else is just trying to use him or hurt him for whatever reason.  It emotionally blackmails the reader into accepting that Ender is a good guy despite straight up murdering people left and right.  If you've read the book in its entirety, you can see how the bigger plot events of the story sort of hinge upon that idea.  And not only is Ender a good guy despite doing awful things, he's a double good guy for purposefully taking the full blame while simultaneously being 'innocent'.


Quote
     This, I fear, is the appeal of Ender’s Game:  it models this scenario precisely and absolves the child of any doubt that his actions in response to such treatment are questionable.  It offers revenge without guilt. If you ever as a child felt unloved, if you ever feared that at some level you might deserve any abuse you suffered, Ender’s story tells you that you do not.  In your soul, you are good. You are specially gifted, and better than anyone else.  Your mistreatment is the evidence of your gifts.  You are morally superior. Your turn will come, and then you may severely punish others, yet remain blameless. You are the hero.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 03:52:49 PM by Capntastic » Logged
Derek
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« Reply #1229 on: March 27, 2012, 04:23:58 PM »

P.S. MASSIVE SPOILERS

Personally, I don't see what the problem is, because I don't consider murder to be an act of absolute evil. Sometimes it's out of negligence or ignorance or stupidity or rage or defense or hunger or whatever. Either way, the intention or morality of the author is not really what makes a book good or bad. It's whether the story is good or bad, and in this case, I think the story is good.

You (and the paper) seem to be arguing that Ender is an evil person because he committed xenocide, and that his intentions don't matter in the context of his actions... but then you're using Scott Card's intentions to strengthen that argument. I think that's a bit unfair.

As for that paragraph, it's definitely supposed to be Ender's internal monologue.
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