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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralAny advice on if I should finish 2 more games for my portfolio?
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Author Topic: Any advice on if I should finish 2 more games for my portfolio?  (Read 1135 times)
Wolf_FGR
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« on: January 14, 2015, 08:01:06 PM »

Hello there.

In 2014 I've published 2 simple games on Google Play, and after making impressive $0.54 from them that year (Ad-supported), I kinda gave up on my extremely Wink promising indie game dev career. The fact I don't use these social media things and a lack of marketing were probably the culprits.

The 2 games I've published are the simpler ones I've developed in 2014. I have a much better shooter which is 60% done and a crazy fighting game that is 95% done (only needs building/some minor testing). I need help deciding if I should publish them, or if it's just better to bury them in my backup disk. I've published another webgame (fully playable beta) but I gave up on it because it's not fun at all.

I want honest replies please. The games are not very impressive and I don't know if anyone actually give a duck about your 'mediocre' portfolio. I mean, if my portfolio is going to serve me nothing, then I won't publish the games, specially because there are always bugfixes to do after publishing and you also have to give support to the players, what is time-intensive.

I'm not giving up on game development, but I know the chances I'm going to make a living out of it are very low, so I'm probably going to continue developing games as a hobby, that is, if I have the spare time and energy due my job... couldn't find anything better in my country/area than a stupid job that pays 600USD/mo for 51h/week. You can't choose when you have bills to pay and mouths to feed.

I need to decide that asap because I'm going to format my main HD and install an updated version of the software I use to make the games that is most surely going to break things badly.

Any advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance.
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starsrift
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« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2015, 06:43:33 AM »

I was a little confused at the use of the word portfolio; you don't appear to have ambition to enter the corporate side of the industry?

Don't give up. Do get a day job if you need one.
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Wolf_FGR
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« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2015, 07:17:45 AM »

I was a little confused at the use of the word portfolio; you don't appear to have ambition to enter the corporate side of the industry?

Don't give up. Do get a day job if you need one.

Hmmm... What word is more suitable?

I have a day job, but the question is: What difference will these 2 extra games in my 'portfolio' make? I want to determine if publishing them is just a big waste of time (just like all the gamedev I did so far).

I know that one should not give up and that romantic stuff, but I'm being realistic, it's better to give up before failing miserably. Cheesy

Yeah, I don't think game dev is the best path to world domination Tongue.
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« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2015, 12:05:01 AM »

A portfolio is if you want to join the industry.

What are you looking for to make with your games? Do you want money? Do you want the satisfaction of making games you'd like to play?

If you put in the extra effort to fix these games, you have to know why.
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Wolf_FGR
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« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2015, 08:46:37 AM »

A portfolio is if you want to join the industry.

What are you looking for to make with your games? Do you want money? Do you want the satisfaction of making games you'd like to play?

If you put in the extra effort to fix these games, you have to know why.
Thanks, I don't know if having a portfolio with those 2 games will help me join the industry (I don't think I have any chance at all), so, if that's the only 'benefit' (higher chance of joining the industry), I don't think it's worth the time.

I wanted to be an indie dev in fact... but it seems that's kinda impossible for me, at least in terms of mobile, because most of the people making any money from mobile games (Android) are the ones treating their players like shit, you know, popping 5 ads right away and re-skinning their stupid games exhaustively (not to mention IAPs/Pay2Win). I will never be able to do that kind of shit.

I want the satisfaction of making games I'd like to play. I need money to live though. I made a game I really enjoyed playing, I thought that was not possible because when you spend so much time making the game somehow it loses the fun factor, but that didn't happen in that case. The game failed miserably on Google Play though. People from India made a ridiculously cheap clone of the game after a month, filled it with extremely intrusive ads, and after a day it had much more downloads than my game in a month.

It seems nowadays there are only two ways to make a living out of Android games: making a 'hit', or treating people like shit. It even rhymes what proves it's true. Cheesy

That's why next game is going to be PC-only. PC is the way to go for honest and non-funded indies. No need to optimize logic for cheapo 800MHz ARM processors, no need to optimize draw calls that much, you can use shaders extensively without caring too much about fallbacks, plenty of storage space, no one gives a duck about few MBs, and it seems PC gamers doesn't like stupid stuff like IAPs and being treated like shit. Just look at all the mobile hits that were ported to PC (Steam has lots), they are all (ok, most) frowned upon.

Perhaps it's better to just bury the 2 games for now and maybe in the future I will publish them for PC/WEB/HTML5.

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« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2015, 08:59:02 AM »

just curious what kind of respectably paying job can you possibly get with a portfolio of indie games?
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Wolf_FGR
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« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2015, 09:02:12 AM »

just curious what kind of respectably paying job can you possibly get with a portfolio of indie games?
I don't know if that question is for me but that's basically the question I'm asking, because if you can't get any with a portfolio of indie games, then it's not worthy having a portfolio of indie games at all. That's pretty much it.
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Moth
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2015, 12:32:35 PM »

marketing isn't something you can skimp on if you want to make a living as an indie. at all.

a game could be amazing and never become known on merit alone. on the other hand, even a bad game can turn a profit if it's marketed effectively; not to say that would be a good thing, mind you, but rather it makes a point that marketing is very, very important.

basically you gotta communicate with people. you need find emails of writers who would cover the kind of game you're working on, then you need to send a lot of emails out to press. 10% of them might cover you if you're lucky, 90% might not even see the email because of how many they get, especially with the bigger sites that you want to be on the most. you have to make an effort to connect, because they're humans. they're treated like robots by the people who make the games they do need to cover, so it's a big deal, as a creator of games they don't necessarily need to cover, to treat them like the human beings with valuable time that they are. at the same time don't let anyone know you're self conscious about your game if you are. you're not asking press to cover your game out of good will, you are trying to show them that if they cover your game, people will care. insecurity will make a negative impression on their perception of the game.

watch this keynote:



I believe the merit of being covered by press is still meaningful and important, but it is also critically important to try and utilize youtube as well. here's a keynote by northernlion, one of the most popular youtube let's players:

. youtube can now be more effective than any press site for marketing your game, if you get lucky and get covered by a really popular youtuber. like, if you had a game people could buy, and a popular youtuber did a video on it, you would make a lot of money.

if your game has memetic potential, such as five nights at freddy's, and everyone wants to play it and share their unique experiences and people love watching those experiences, youtube will be by far your most incredible, important asset.

but there are other approaches besides self publishing. there are actually indie game publishers that will handle many things for you- marketing, getting onto steam, etc- if your game is good enough to catch their eye. in some cases this can be better than self publishing because some people simply won't have the time/resources to do a good enough job on their own in the long run. but no one knows the future so it's kind of a gamble. that's not to say going through a publisher is objectively worse than self publishing, even though it would mean less money; they do handle some headache inducing things, like a lot of the paperwork, for instance.

you can make flash/html5 games and license them out on sites like flash game license. truevalhalla makes a living doing this basically (although he does a lot of other things too, he works his ass off) although I'd say the bubble has kind of burst on this one.

you can write lots of short porn stories and sell them on all the electronic fiction markets and make a couple thousand in USD a month if you really exerted yourself and wrote many of them. they don't even need to be that good. I have officially derailed. but just throwing that out there.
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Wolf_FGR
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2015, 02:29:50 PM »

marketing isn't something you can skimp on if you want to make a living as an indie. at all.

a game could be amazing and never become known on merit alone. on the other hand, even a bad game can turn a profit if it's marketed effectively; not to say that would be a good thing, mind you, but rather it makes a point that marketing is very, very important.

basically you gotta communicate with people. you need find emails of writers who would cover the kind of game you're working on, then you need to send a lot of emails out to press. 10% of them might cover you if you're lucky, 90% might not even see the email because of how many they get, especially with the bigger sites that you want to be on the most. you have to make an effort to connect, because they're humans. they're treated like robots by the people who make the games they do need to cover, so it's a big deal, as a creator of games they don't necessarily need to cover, to treat them like the human beings with valuable time that they are. at the same time don't let anyone know you're self conscious about your game if you are. you're not asking press to cover your game out of good will, you are trying to show them that if they cover your game, people will care. insecurity will make a negative impression on their perception of the game.

watch this keynote:



I believe the merit of being covered by press is still meaningful and important, but it is also critically important to try and utilize youtube as well. here's a keynote by northernlion, one of the most popular youtube let's players:

. youtube can now be more effective than any press site for marketing your game, if you get lucky and get covered by a really popular youtuber. like, if you had a game people could buy, and a popular youtuber did a video on it, you would make a lot of money.

if your game has memetic potential, such as five nights at freddy's, and everyone wants to play it and share their unique experiences and people love watching those experiences, youtube will be by far your most incredible, important asset.

but there are other approaches besides self publishing. there are actually indie game publishers that will handle many things for you- marketing, getting onto steam, etc- if your game is good enough to catch their eye. in some cases this can be better than self publishing because some people simply won't have the time/resources to do a good enough job on their own in the long run. but no one knows the future so it's kind of a gamble. that's not to say going through a publisher is objectively worse than self publishing, even though it would mean less money; they do handle some headache inducing things, like a lot of the paperwork, for instance.

you can make flash/html5 games and license them out on sites like flash game license. truevalhalla makes a living doing this basically (although he does a lot of other things too, he works his ass off) although I'd say the bubble has kind of burst on this one.

you can write lots of short porn stories and sell them on all the electronic fiction markets and make a couple thousand in USD a month if you really exerted yourself and wrote many of them. they don't even need to be that good. I have officially derailed. but just throwing that out there.

Thank you for your detailed reply.

I know marketing is important, that's why I've created accounts on all big social networks out there (twitta, facebook, gplus, youtube) and 'linked' them all with a wordpress blog, so they all gets updated and I made some youtube videos and even asked a friend who is somewhat popular on youtube to make a video of one of my games. Everything is 'integrated' and in 2014 I updated them quite often with new contents, but failed miserably to get any attention.

The fact is, I don't have time for better marketing, and the people who live of ads on Google Play they have a ridiculous amount of 'friends' on facebook while I don't have a personal facebook account, so facebook is definitely good for marketing... I do everything myself, except for the musics, but it takes a lot of time to make a game from scratch (i don't use 3rd party scripts or paid assets (no $)), you know, game design, arts, sounds, programming, tests, no one helps me, so if I was going to do the marketing probably I'd only be able to release a single game each year.

Also, I think you're citing some exceptions here, for example, 5 night @ freddy's is an exception, there's a lot of luck involved there imho, you can't just follow their exact steps, it's not a 'reproducible' result imho.

I don't think any 'marketer' will be interested in my games, as you said, it's a kind of gambling, and they aren't taking any big risks afaik, if it's not obvious the game will be a hit no one is gonna be interested on it. Also, I don't want to develop games to simply make money, I want to make 'niche' games and stuff like that, I don't want a multi-million business. I know games aren't going to allow me to execute my world domination plans.

Perhaps licensing html5 games is something to look at. Thanks for pointing that out.

Also, that last paragraph is tempting... thousands of USD/mo? I only need like 400 to maintain myself. If that's true perhaps I could work 15 days/mo writing that kinda stuff to fund the rest of the month developing games... that would be nice.
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Moth
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2015, 03:47:43 PM »

you're welcome! I hope I could have provided some insight.

Also, I think you're citing some exceptions here, for example, 5 night @ freddy's is an exception, there's a lot of luck involved there imho, you can't just follow their exact steps, it's not a 'reproducible' result imho.

I think it's a reproducible insofar as five nights at freddy's was a quality game. I'm sure there's may be a wealth of people who would argue with me on this but I saw it when it went live and before the internet desensitized me to fnaf completely it was really scary and well made, and I knew it was going to be huge. I honestly think fnaf is a really elegantly designed and well thought out game which is mindful of its graphical limitations, interestingly subverts standards it sets to keep you on your toes (foxy's sprint...) and although you can eventually learn all the mechanics on a mathematical level, it still feels really organic and like anything can happen when you're learning the ropes. This might seem like a tangential praise of fnaf but basically what I'm getting at is fnaf was an interesting, quality game and horror games are huge on youtube, so its success was really written on the wall to me.

basically horror games are youtube bait. a badly made horror game maybe not, but if you can do something new and interesting, like fnaf did, people will really dig it. the graphics don't even need to be very good for people to think things are scary which is a little bizarre to me. their art can be technically lacking but they still need to be stylistically striking, if you know what I mean. if you're like me and nothing scares you, if you can make something that you think is a little unsettling it'll probably work for most of the teenagers on youtube. just crank up the atmosphere and play a scary noise when something pops out

I don't think any 'marketer' will be interested in my games, as you said, it's a kind of gambling, and they aren't taking any big risks afaik, if it's not obvious the game will be a hit no one is gonna be interested on it. Also, I don't want to develop games to simply make money, I want to make 'niche' games and stuff like that, I don't want a multi-million business. I know games aren't going to allow me to execute my world domination plans.

there are publishers who will support and market tinier games! it doesn't need to be something on par with AAA devs, you'd be surprised. google "indie game publisher". here's one, look at this page: digital tribe games

Perhaps licensing html5 games is something to look at. Thanks for pointing that out.

it's kind of tough to break into, I made an html5 game and had zero luck marketing it, never sold a license one friggin time, meanwhile people can make a game and get a few $500 licensing deals for games without trying, it's kind of a crapshot. (my game was a lot prettier and funner than some real dreck that got licensed out multiple times. ...what's that? I'm not bitter!!)

html5 licensing is really lent to tinier games I think. the tinier but more infectious, the better- if you can make a simple game with a really fun mechanic that's the most effective cost:benefit ratio you can manage if you were to develop small html5 games on a small budget of time. most fortuitously your game will be one you don't need to slave over assets for BUT good graphics will go a long way!!

Also, that last paragraph is tempting... thousands of USD/mo? I only need like 400 to maintain myself. If that's true perhaps I could work 15 days/mo writing that kinda stuff to fund the rest of the month developing games... that would be nice.

it takes some true, horny conviction. technically you can also do the same with non porn fiction but people will buy porn way faster unless you're well known, sad but true
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Wolf_FGR
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« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2015, 06:33:32 PM »

Thank you Moth!

you're welcome! I hope I could have provided some insight.

Also, I think you're citing some exceptions here, for example, 5 night @ freddy's is an exception, there's a lot of luck involved there imho, you can't just follow their exact steps, it's not a 'reproducible' result imho.

I think it's a reproducible insofar as five nights at freddy's was a quality game. I'm sure there's may be a wealth of people who would argue with me on this but I saw it when it went live and before the internet desensitized me to fnaf completely it was really scary and well made, and I knew it was going to be huge. I honestly think fnaf is a really elegantly designed and well thought out game which is mindful of its graphical limitations, interestingly subverts standards it sets to keep you on your toes (foxy's sprint...) and although you can eventually learn all the mechanics on a mathematical level, it still feels really organic and like anything can happen when you're learning the ropes. This might seem like a tangential praise of fnaf but basically what I'm getting at is fnaf was an interesting, quality game and horror games are huge on youtube, so its success was really written on the wall to me.

basically horror games are youtube bait. a badly made horror game maybe not, but if you can do something new and interesting, like fnaf did, people will really dig it. the graphics don't even need to be very good for people to think things are scary which is a little bizarre to me. their art can be technically lacking but they still need to be stylistically striking, if you know what I mean. if you're like me and nothing scares you, if you can make something that you think is a little unsettling it'll probably work for most of the teenagers on youtube. just crank up the atmosphere and play a scary noise when something pops out

Yeah, perhaps you're right (taking 'proper marketing' into account). I think the market is overcrowded with horror games though and realistic graphics are very important. I can't compete without some good artists.

Quote
I don't think any 'marketer' will be interested in my games, as you said, it's a kind of gambling, and they aren't taking any big risks afaik, if it's not obvious the game will be a hit no one is gonna be interested on it. Also, I don't want to develop games to simply make money, I want to make 'niche' games and stuff like that, I don't want a multi-million business. I know games aren't going to allow me to execute my world domination plans.

there are publishers who will support and market tinier games! it doesn't need to be something on par with AAA devs, you'd be surprised. google "indie game publisher". here's one, look at this page: digital tribe games

Still, my games aren't going to sell a lot because they are niche games.

Quote
Perhaps licensing html5 games is something to look at. Thanks for pointing that out.

it's kind of tough to break into, I made an html5 game and had zero luck marketing it, never sold a license one friggin time, meanwhile people can make a game and get a few $500 licensing deals for games without trying, it's kind of a crapshot. (my game was a lot prettier and funner than some real dreck that got licensed out multiple times. ...what's that? I'm not bitter!!)

html5 licensing is really lent to tinier games I think. the tinier but more infectious, the better- if you can make a simple game with a really fun mechanic that's the most effective cost:benefit ratio you can manage if you were to develop small html5 games on a small budget of time. most fortuitously your game will be one you don't need to slave over assets for BUT good graphics will go a long way!!

It seems the games are quite simple... I was thinking about WebGL and stuff... I'm still not quite convinced though but I've looked at some websites and the games are so simple that perhaps I will give it a try someday. It seems you need simple mechanics and good graphics... nice opportunity to give MonkeyX a try since I've used BlitzMax for quite some time in the past.

Quote
Also, that last paragraph is tempting... thousands of USD/mo? I only need like 400 to maintain myself. If that's true perhaps I could work 15 days/mo writing that kinda stuff to fund the rest of the month developing games... that would be nice.

it takes some true, horny conviction. technically you can also do the same with non porn fiction but people will buy porn way faster unless you're well known, sad but true
Sorry, I completely missed the word 'porn' Grin. Couldn't do that. I'm somewhat interested in non-porn fiction though, I have quite a few good stories, but English is not my native language and I'm not confident my grammar is good enough.
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