next »

[J-Snake]

I have been replaying Super Metroid after reading the lovely series by Anatomy of Games, and good lord, it is true how many things do right. In particular the multiple and interesting used the weapons//tools have and how the already available skillset empower the player all the time. How the level design is tightly married with the whole game design and the narrative. The way the levels loop and the guiding signs become subtler and subtler is amazing.

Comon, Super Metroid is terrible compared to the game it could have been.

[gimymblert]

j-snake think about it, there is still barely games above it

[tok]

this worries me. is there a way we could act to crate more arbitrary agents

[J-Snake]

j-snake think about it, there is still barely games above it

Yeah, that's sad.

[Torchkas]

Comon, Super Metroid is terrible compared to the game it could have been.

I'm pretty curious what the reason behind you saying this is. Could you elaborate?
Does it have something to do with the time it was built in or the people working on it? Especially because of what's been said. You know, it's still one of the best of its kind.

[gimymblert]

Prime is best but also 3D so it's not the same league

also New zelda show made by netflix, it's real
http://kotaku.com/report-netflix-making-legend-of-zelda-tv-series-1684293104?utm_campaign=Socialflow_Kotaku_Twitter&utm_source=Kotaku_Twitter&utm_medium=Socialflow

What's happening?

The publication's sources describe the project as being in the "early stages" but is being thought of as "Game of Thrones for a family audience."

[SirNiko]

Prime 1 had the best atmosphere (lonely exploration without NPC dialogue) but 2 and 3 subsequently improved the controls and offered really fun scenarios. The only bit in 3 I didn't care for was the reliance on scripted dialogue scenes with the other hunters. Mechanically it was a lot of fun, and scenarios like fixing the escape pod on the bomb cradle just felt fun to play, even if they were easy.

One thing that bugs me constantly about Super Metroid - does the ability to infinitely wall jump off one wall make the game better (because it allows players to perform all manner of sequence breaking tricks) or worse (because it defeats existing platforming challenges and makes them redundant)? If wall jumping off one wall was made more difficult but still just as useful, would it make a difference?

[J-Snake]

Comon, Super Metroid is terrible compared to the game it could have been.

I'm pretty curious what the reason behind you saying this is. Could you elaborate?
Does it have something to do with the time it was built in or the people working on it? Especially because of what's been said. You know, it's still one of the best of its kind.

Ok, hope it is not worth a thread

Short answer: The main problem is in controls-design and combat

The problem I see is that most people are parroting popular opinions/reviews without thinking on his own what makes the game complete. There is this atmosphere/exploration/adventure side of things. And then there are mechanics and combat.
Those are both sides of the same coin, which is the game. Now if the player only cares about the adventure side of things, excluding the other side then there is no arguing, it is his choice, and that is where the game shines. The problem is that this is the only side reviewers seem to care about, without being aware of that. And that leads to an "overshadowing" effect, where now also the other side of the coin is considered to be great. It's the same psychological effect like when you receive a nice shiny coin as a gift, you don't expect it to be dirty on the other side. But you will certainly know whether it is dirty when you decide to turn it around and look at it. Most people didn't turn Super Metroid around to see its mechanical- and combat flaws, so to speak.

Actually, over time my Super Metroid Tournament Log will throughly reveal the shortcomings in Super Metroid. It's a side project with a low priority at the moment. I archive some important insights now and then there. It will certainly reveal that there are ways to harness the complexity in vastly more elegant and powerfull ways.

[gimymblert]

except that the point was never combat or control, this is not mario, and even then it's great compared to the average, control is bad when it gets in the way, they don't

[J-Snake]

except that the point was never combat or control... control is bad when it gets in the way, they don't

But this side is there, it is not something I make up.  Just look at the move-and weapon set you acquire.

[Dragonmaw]

not entirely sure why you are hating on super metroid's mechanics so much. it's actually a surprisingly fluid and accessible game, mechanically. my only major gripe is that the start of your run feels maybe two frames too slow.

in fact, the only 2D metroid that surpasses it is fusion, and that was by cutting chunks of exploration to make mechanics more linearly challenging.

super metroid - and any non-linear metroid - has the main flaw of inconsistent challenge in relation to your current skill level and inventory, but that's a problem with ALL open-world games.

i invite you to actually explain why you think super metroid is a poorly designed game, either here or in a separate thread, since you didn't actually say anything in your posts except "it sucks, look at how much it sucks, i'm not gonna tell you why"

[J-Snake]

not entirely sure why you are hating on super metroid's mechanics so much. it's actually a surprisingly fluid and accessible game, mechanically. my only major gripe is that the start of your run feels maybe two frames too slow.

First, do you agree that a control system that let's you do the same things with less input overhead is superior?

[gimymblert]

you have to explain that input relative to teh snes
But such an input exist in metroid, just don't use diagonal and it's fine (i guess that's your cues?). Metroid like mario 64 is having extra controls for comfort.

[J-Snake]

you have to explain that input relative to teh snes

Yes, of course. You can also see my last post in the SM Tournament Devlog that I focus to optimize design for the snes controller.

[Dragonmaw]

not entirely sure why you are hating on super metroid's mechanics so much. it's actually a surprisingly fluid and accessible game, mechanically. my only major gripe is that the start of your run feels maybe two frames too slow.

First, do you agree that a control system that let's you do the same things with less input overhead is superior?

No.

[J-Snake]

But such an input exist in metroid, just don't use diagonal and it's fine (i guess that's your cues?). Metroid like mario 64 is having extra controls for comfort.

I don't think they had the luxury to provide extra comfort. It's developers created a beast they could not handle. They didn't find a way to use the snes controller efficiently, so they decided to add a level of indirection to it to make all features available. For example you have to double tap the down button to morph. Of course I don't know what went through their head exactly, I would like to read an article on it if it exists. But the controls ended up being a giant hack.

[gimymblert]

not entirely sure why you are hating on super metroid's mechanics so much. it's actually a surprisingly fluid and accessible game, mechanically. my only major gripe is that the start of your run feels maybe two frames too slow.

First, do you agree that a control system that let's you do the same things with less input overhead is superior?

No.

the win button think about it, you press and it give you complete control over winning, perfect control, just like qte

@jsnake
stand >> crouch >> morph crawl? I don't see it, I guess you wanted a game designer for speedrunner not for player

[Dragonmaw]

Less input overhead is important in a specific way, but not as a general rule. You should have as many unique inputs as are important to your game and the purpose of the action you are performing.

For example, I actually like the Run/Cover input combination in Gears of War, because the game is about advancing from cover to cover. I think the mantle button being the same button, though, is tedious; I don't want to pop into cover every time I want to mantle an object.

[gimymblert]

[Dragonmaw]

you forgot run (which is how you shinespark)