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[J-Snake]

you forgot run (which is how you shinespark)

No, I didn't;) You will see later how it works. My assumption is that most of the time you want to run, so slowing down should require an additional action, not the other way round.

[J-Snake]

Less input overhead is important in a specific way, but not as a general rule.

If it is not about the sport or necessity of holding the downtime of an action (like special moves in fighters) then really it is a general rule. It's rather the opposite, it is important in a general way, only not in the one specific scenario I mentioned. I think we want the mechanics of the games to scale to their potential and not hold them back, except one enjoys gimmicks that much.

Just to go sure. By input overhead, I really mean more input than necessary to perform an atomic action. It has nothing to do with a win button, a win button would be a specific composition of atomic actions which make you win the game.

[Thomas Finch]

Congratulations, everyone. 1000 pages of fighting thread pollution.

[s0]

Congratulations, everyone. 1000 pages of fighting thread pollution.

I GUESS NOT

[gimymblert]

the curse, everytimes the thread achieve 1000 we remove post of change the length of pages

[Dragonmaw]

you forgot run (which is how you shinespark)

No, I didn't;) You will see later how it works. My assumption is that most of the time you want to run, so slowing down should require an additional action, not the other way round.

Your assumption is wrong.

[Dragonmaw]

Less input overhead is important in a specific way, but not as a general rule.

If it is not about the sport or necessity of holding the downtime of an action (like special moves in fighters) then really it is a general rule. It's rather the opposite, it is important in a general way, only not in the one specific scenario I mentioned. I think we want the mechanics of the games to scale to their potential and not hold them back, except one enjoys gimmicks that much.

Just to go sure. By input overhead, I really mean more input than necessary to perform an atomic action. It has nothing to do with a win button, a win button would be a specific composition of atomic actions which make you win the game.

The rule is "have as many inputs as are necessary for discrete actions."

That's why shinesparking is, for example, a subset of running; if you want to run, and you crouch, you start to shinespark, because shinesparking is similar to running.

The notion that using the morph ball requires its own input is kinda silly. It's like, to continue the Gears of War analogy, having two buttons that both look @ your co-op partner (Y and the team button). It's just not necessary to separate that action from its genealogical successor; in this case, the morph ball is a subset of crouch, as it takes you into even smaller corridors. Hence, double-tap down.

A good example of a simplification is how Prime 1 did not have jumping in the morph ball - always had to use bombs - while Prime 3 and onward (and Prime 1/2 in the Prime Trilogy collection) did; there was no reason to separate out "jump" from "place bomb and wait ten seconds" after you learned what bomb jumping was. I think it's even an upgrade in Super Metroid, lol.

[J-Snake]

The rule is "have as many inputs as are necessary for discrete actions."

Super Metroid demands more input than necessary for discrete actions, it's convoluted. You can do more with less, and more efficiently in everything it tries to achieve.

Regarding morph ball, you can think of it as being a subset of crouch to make it plausible, but whether it deserves to be treated that way is a different question. Notice that there is no crouch in air. To me it is clear that it is close enough to be its own atomic action. It's a fundamental action and I don't think there is a benefit to tap 2 times just for the sport of it.

Regarding running, I understand that when you first time play Super Metroid you are supposed to take it slow. I am merely addressing the Super Metroid Tournament scenario. You  want to run fast by default. Otherwise it is not optimal. Your fingers is a limited resource. The less fingers you have to occupy, the better you can play.

[J-Snake]

But probably the most terrible thing in Super Metroid is air-control. Sure you can be ok with that since the game doesn't require to make good use of it. But when I observe it, it's very inefficient in what it tries to achieve. It's more a hack than a consistent concept.

[baconman]

Here's a better idea. Make the weapons all mid-range so that it hits one-tile high creatures, and then make morph ball a single down-tap. You can also Speed Booster xx Morph Ball this way if you'd like, too.

Then again, it depends on your goal with SuperMetTournament - is it to make your own, optimised experience with the controls, or is it specifically to recreate the actual, legit Super Metroid controls and physics?

SuperMet has a significant fanbase, dedicated to speedrunning, and certain techniques (ESPECIALLY SHINESPARK!!!) actually DO function as a kind of "special move," in a sense. Shinespark is far from the only "special move" in the game - one could argue that boomerang walljumps are a second one - but what really differenciates SuperMet from other Metroid games - apart from the relative openness of certain screens/environments, is the fact that it even HAS these "special moves."

Just try some boomerang walljumps. Pros make it look easy, but ONLY because they have extensively mastered the controls. THE CONTROLS. The CONTROLS you seek to REDEFINE in an experience you are NAMING "Super Metroid Tournament."

Not saying you're wrong, but worth putting out there.

/TIGSdesignerwhoworkedonPGCMetroidfangamehere

PS: phr00t and I didn't "do the controls right" either. But we also didn't NAME the game "Super Metroid" anything, either.

http://tonythetgr.itch.io/gentrieve
____________________

EDIT: Yes, the air control is kind of floaty, and WAY more momentum-based than even the ground controls. This is what MAKES Super Metroid physics, and why it's not Sonic the Hedgehog or MegaMan. Playing the game doesn't require you master it, but MASTERING the game DOES. Super Metroid's air-game *IS* what separates pros from bros.

[J-Snake]

Super Metroid Tournement is a different set of controls and mechanics aswell. Original Super Metroid mechanics barely work in simplistic combat scenarios. A competitive combat game on top of that wouldn't make it any far.

Just try some boomerang walljumps.

That is a major thing that broke Super Metroid. It reduces the depth of traversal. It offers just too much freedom in the set of basic navigation tools. I will propose another solution, based on momentum. You won't be able to "fly up" a single wall. I hope you are not surprised

You can actually see the current solution I am using. I found a way for a more elegant design. The video will be updated but the principle is the same:

[baconman]

I'm really not - even Nintendo intentionally removed/reworked the physics to its' later counterparts - and even level design - to prohibit using that as a crutch. But again, it's one of those changing factors that makes fans argue that SuperMet is/forever-will-be the superior Metroid experience.

 

But then, it's not even really a Metroid game at all (conceptually speaking), is it?

[Glyph]

I think if you dug into it long enough you could raise some valid controls concerns with Super Metroid's controls, but I also think that it really just amounts to nit-picking. Honestly, you always come off as some hyper-intensive troll whenever I read your posts because your domain of discourse is always the minutiae of the microcosmic.

Back on topic, the real problem with picking controls in Super Metroid and telling us why they're wrong is that they aren't. If Super Metroid had controls like your game did it would probably make for a better arena fighter but a worse Metroid game. And maybe your choices really would make it better, but I say 'so what'? If I didn't complain about them the first time playing it when I was like, 7, I don't think I'd have an issue now. The game is not about the controls, and your game might be, but your game is not Super Metroid.

And if you want to 'revolutionize controls', picking a game that isn't a fighting game and telling us how you can make the controls 'better' by making them more fighting-gamey is a pretty strange way of going about it. Pick a fighting game instead like SF or something platforming-based like Smash and make comparisons on what you've done different from there, because honestly that would be a lot more insightful than comparing it with an exploration game that you happen to be fixated on.

[J-Snake]

I read your posts because your domain of discourse is always the minutiae of the microcosmic.

What I am talking about is fundamental to the gameplay, changing the wall-jump for example can have deep implications for traversal, nothing microscopic.

[J-Snake]

If Super Metroid had controls like your game did it would probably make for a better arena fighter but a worse Metroid game

You think those two have to be mutually exclusive, do you even have a basis to assume that;)

[baconman]

J-Snake is INTJ. There is no scale to him, the grand scheme of things is nothing but a PRODUCT OF the minutae. EVERYTHING IS MINUTAE. This is why TrapThem requires such a high degree of precision in executing your solutions.

Sorry J-Snake, I just think most people here don't "get you" on that level.

[gimymblert]

almost my opposite I share N with him on the myers thingy

[Glyph]

If Super Metroid had controls like your game did it would probably make for a better arena fighter but a worse Metroid game

You think those two have to be mutually exclusive, do you even have a basis to assume that;)

The basis is my opinion, just as any counterpoint you have is your opinion. I like how Samus feels clunky, since she's wearing a heavy suit of Chozo armor after all... Like maybe the ridiculous amount of turnaround frames in SM could be construed as a bad thing, but I could (and do) just as easily see them as a good thing. Same for double-tapping to go to morph ball. And definitely air momentum, that's like, fundamental to how Samus 'feels'

I read your posts because your domain of discourse is always the minutiae of the microcosmic.

What I am talking about is fundamental to the gameplay, changing the wall-jump for example can have deep implications for traversal, nothing microscopic.

Maybe if you played the game like a speedrunner. I never have and never wanted to abuse the single-wall jump glitch. I don't think that was the way SM was intended to be played, just a happy consequence for the super-dedicated (which you want to change for what reason, again?)

[halk3n]

What about Fusion J-Snake?

[rj]

basically all of your fucking complaints boil down to not understanding that super metroid has never been a game about shooting things. it's a game about jumping around and exploring things and sometimes running very fast. air control is excellent for what it is; it's vastly vertical (because the game values vertical space more than horizontal space regarding jumping) except for when horizontal inertia is applied in excess, which makes sense.

samus has heft and weight and moves horizontally like a train, which makes sense because of her bulk. she builds speed. she jumps with a lot of power and recedes. space jumping feels good and weird, because the very concept of space jumping is bizarre.

every control thing feels intuitive and flows well into itself. if you feel uncomfortable playing it i'm honestly going to say that it's because you're bad at it or because you have too much of a combat fetish

super metroid isn't a combat game

go play metal slug instead or whatever else you're obsessed with

edit: made a change for clarity's sake in the opening line