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[J-Snake]

With each "run" it only ever uncovered more, or prompted additional paths or ways through.

What's the point of additional paths or ways when you are not a speedrunner? Do you expect to see new stories, discover new flora and fauna, etc.?

It's also perfectly possible to eat soup with sticks, if you train long enough. That doesn't make sticks a great tool for eating.

Maybe because soup isn't meant to be eaten with sticks.  

Yet, this is what you are still doing in Super Metroid.

Having a run button is important in creating a level of physicality, it further attaches you to the movements you're doing

Feel free to tell me how it is necessarily important. It certainly attaches your finger to the run button, even when it is not necessary. Btw. a run-button was not even a real flaw or concern to me, I just found I can optimize it away with little to no regret and use the freed button for more deserving things.

[JutsBeaumont]

What's the point of additional paths or ways when you are not a speedrunner? Do you expect to see new stories, discover new flora and fauna, etc.?

...Because the act of doing it itself is enjoyable. It's really weird how focused you are on speedrunning.

Yet, this is what you are still doing in Super Metroid.

No, I've been using a spoon to eat soup.

Feel free to tell me how it is necessarily important. It certainly attaches your finger to the run button, even when it is not necessary.

That something can be done more "efficiently" or "with less work" does not mean it produces the best outcome or that it's qualitatively the best. The two aren't connected like that.

It's a matter of intuitive control, of giving presence and weight to movements and abilities. It synchronizes the players action with the characters action. It's the same reason why Shadow of the Colossus has you hold the grab button in order to stay onto surfaces. Your optimization is comparatively soulless.

And, again, speed boost being distinct from conventional movement is pretty important.

[J-Snake]

It's a matter of intuitive control, of giving presence and weight to movements and abilities. It synchronizes the players action with the characters action.

None of that goes away by removing the run button. You just accelerate to run speed by default.

And, again, speed boost being distinct from conventional movement is pretty important.

In my design it is distinct from conventional movement. Super Metroid is not the only way how to think about controls design.

[JutsBeaumont]

You specified shine spark, not speed boost. Clarify.

None of that goes away by removing the run button. You just accelerate to run speed by default.

But it does make it the "basis" for movement. Acceleration is automatic, and it removes the choice and intent in running.

[J-Snake]

I meant exactly that, Speed Booster. Note, Super Metroid is not the only way how to design controls and mechanics.

If you want to run, you want to run with the run speed. Is there any need to fine tune your speed during running?
Note that in Super Metroid you can only get faster, but never slower during running.

No, I've been using a spoon to eat soup.

After long time of adaption a stick will look like a spoon to you. It's a typical phenomena.

[J-Snake]

Acceleration is automatic, and it removes the choice and intent in running.

To make it more clear, I just reverse the default intention. It doesn't change anything about mechanics. By default you run instead of walking. If you want you can still walk. I can even offer the choice to accelerate and decelerate during running, and the control-scheme is still using less buttons than Super Metroid does, despite the added flexibility. But how important is actually fine tuning the speed during running? That's what I challenge you to find out.

[JutsBeaumont]

After long time of adaption a stick will look like a spoon to you. It's a typical phenomena.

God, you are insufferably pretentious.

[J-Snake]

Nah, don't take that personally as an insult. But I care very much about controls and mechanics.

[gimymblert]

So do I
But there is a stretch to pretend that the old control where bad when they are only bad under your new paradigm which is the major umbrage people takes here.

However less talk more supermetTOURNament

[rj]

jesus christ. j-snake just focus on your fucking devlog and make your game and stop telling people that they're wrong (they aren't) for liking a game you don't like because you can't 360 no scope triple zoom combo mlg pro

super metroid has excellent mechanics for what it is. people enjoy playing it and exploring. speedrunning and combat and other typical gamey things aren't the be all end all of video games and people can enjoy things without having an ulterior motive or just being "used" to them

[baconman]

rj/J-Snake: Look up Mercenary Kings, THAT'S exactly what YOU'RE talking about

how the fuck is mercenary kings in any way relevant to anything i said at all about how he's wrong regarding super metroid's controls

(ps: i own it. i still haven't beat it, but it's enjoyable, if not quite as good as scott pilgrim vs the world, but it's fun and nice to look at)

It's not about SuperMet's controls, it's about "what SuperMet would be like, focused on combat more and platforming less."

[Dragonmaw]

jesus christ. j-snake just focus on your fucking devlog and make your game and stop telling people that they're wrong (they aren't) for liking a game you don't like because you can't 360 no scope triple zoom combo mlg pro

super metroid has excellent mechanics for what it is. people enjoy playing it and exploring. speedrunning and combat and other typical gamey things aren't the be all end all of video games and people can enjoy things without having an ulterior motive or just being "used" to them

i think it's important to note that a game does not need to be perfect or challenging in order to be good. it just needs to convey a strong sense of place, of cohesiveness, of character.

flaws in a game can be just as important as perfection. one of my favorite shooters is half flaws, but it builds an effective and compelling atmosphere.

[baconman]

Yep. Less argues, more game.

We've stimulated your Pness enough already.

[The Translocator]

one of my favorite shooters is half flaws

Out of curiosity, what's the shooter?

[Christian Knudsen]

Half Flaws^TM

[Dragonmaw]

Far Cry 2.

[Alevice]

bump!

i found this hack intriguing and would like to hear jsnake thoughts on it

http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/405/

[ProgramGamer]

Wasn't the original argument of this thread about how morph ball needed to be activated by its own dedicated button?

[J-Snake]

"This small hack only changes the control setup for the game, to something closer to the newer GBA Metroid games"

As long as the movement physics don't change it is not enough. Plus I am not a fan of controls in GBA Metroid games.

My point is to meet the following demands at once:

- express actions with the least input overhead possible

- different actions should not conflict with each other regarding input ("orthogonal action design")

- keeping mechanical consistency in physics whenever breaking it is not justified

[ProgramGamer]

But the world is already made. Won't changing the physics of the game destroy the level design?

For everything else I think I have a control layout that works:

L: Aim up and down with the help of the d-pad

A: Shoot beam
B: Jump
X: Run
Y: Shoot missile
y + morph ball: Bombs
Down: Crouch
Select: X-ray visor

R + A: Grapple beam
R + X: Morph ball
R + Y: Shoot super missile
R + Y + morph ball: Power bombs

Also, pressing up and a side direction does not cause you to aim diagonally, allowing you to aim up while running.

The only issue with this is that it's hard to run and jump at the same time, so maybe swap missiles with running.