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TIGSource ForumsCommunityTownhallForum IssuesArchived subforums (read only)TutorialsApproaching a MMO
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Author Topic: Approaching a MMO  (Read 13203 times)
Don Andy
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2009, 02:32:20 PM »

Your nose looks weird.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2009, 10:26:12 AM »

What is wrong with retro? Tongue

What Chris said. And what he said in this thread:  http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=4500.msg147426#msg147426

And yes, what he said about this tutorial is also the problem I have with his tutorials. Generally speaking, tutorials are best when written by experienced developers, not 16-year-olds (I think he said he was 16 in his intro post if I'm remembering right?). Not that there's anything wrong with being young, it's just that you don't really know enough at that age to teach authoritatively on a topic. I appreciate the effort and enthusiasm, but I just don't want to see this forum overrun by tutorials like this.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 10:30:00 AM by Paul Eres » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2009, 01:12:48 PM »

I second that. I respect that you are willing to help and contribute, Ajene, but remember that many people here are actual game developers with years of experience. We're looking for more in-depth and specific tutorials to expand our knowledge in different areas.

Your articles are too general and sometimes even just not right. For example: your design doc tutorial is more about what most game dev newbies imagine design doc to be, not what it actually is and what it's useful for.

Please don't take it personally, but I would really like if the Tutorials section would keep the average quality it has now. If you are not an expert willing to provide specific guide on how to improve in a particular subject, please don't post.
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Tom Grochowiak
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2009, 02:00:02 PM »

Here's a tip: put all your articles within one topic. Don't use separate topics for separate articles. Even better, put your articles on some website and put the links in one topic or post them when you see appropriate chance.
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Ajene
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2009, 10:07:49 PM »

What is wrong with retro? Tongue
And yes, what he said about this tutorial is also the problem I have with his tutorials. Generally speaking, tutorials are best when written by experienced developers, not 16-year-olds (I think he said he was 16 in his intro post if I'm remembering right?). Not that there's anything wrong with being young, it's just that you don't really know enough at that age to teach authoritatively on a topic. I appreciate the effort and enthusiasm, but I just don't want to see this forum overrun by tutorials like this.
Well i was just making some basic things that i wish i would've known when first starting. And also being 16 has nothing at all to do with my experience in game making. There are plenty of 16 year olds who could pass as professionals. If you didnt know my age, you wouldnt base how well at gaming i am by my age.
I'll be putting up tuts on drawing and 3D modeling soon. Just school is in the way of me actually putting these things up, as well as Army training and checking out colleges. So mostly i have just been perfecting my Drawing.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2009, 10:17:44 PM »

"There are plenty of 16 year olds who could pass as professionals."

I kind of doubt there are plenty of them that could pass as a professional when tested on a significantly broad basis. If they could -- if someone with only a few years of experience could pass for someone with decades of experience -- that only shows how poor standards of professionalism have become.
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Ajene
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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2009, 10:25:54 PM »

it all depends man. If the kid has the drive, they can do very well. If they've worked for years non stop, knew what they wanted to do as a young child. And practice they could do well. They wouldnt have years of experience, and they still are in learning.

My brother worked on a game as a child, He was drawing like a pro at around my age.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2009, 10:30:00 PM »

Yeah, there are prodigies, but I don't think they're that common. For instance, when was the last time you read a great novel by a 16-year-old?

Anyway, I didn't mean to attack your age, it's somewhat irrelevant, it's really more about the quality of the tutorials (for the reasons Chris mentioned), so I only meant it as a possible (maybe even likely) explanation for the quality of the tutorials.
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Ajene
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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2009, 10:51:56 PM »

Np man, it just annoys me how people go for my age. Many think that as a 16year old i'm not well experienced in some things. I'm not prodigy but I'm doing better then many other 16year olds. I play 2 instruments, speak 4 languages, Already know what i wanna do. And have already looked into several colleges. The tuts I made are just things i simply threw together. They were mostly copied of forums where there were many people my age wanting to make games. I plan to do something more to add to this forum when i get less busy.
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Hajo
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2009, 01:30:21 AM »

The tuts I made are just things i simply threw together. They were mostly copied of forums where there were many people my age wanting to make games. I plan to do something more to add to this forum when i get less busy.

Many of the visitors here are professionals, or on a level very close to professionals (artists, coders, musicians ...). Some have many years of experience in the field of game making on their back.

Something "simply thrown together" will be recognized as such, and will not be seen very helpful by many, I think.

For example, your MMO tutorial doesn't touch the questions of networking (connections vs datagrams, polling vs. streaming) or handling massively parallel actions on the server (threading, synchronizing, other solutions) and it also misses the question how to split a big game world in manageable parts, how to deal with these to make a still seamless world, and for example if the world is too big for one server, how to do server handovers smoothly. For aspiring MMO developers, answers to these questions are important, though.
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Per aspera ad astra
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« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2009, 11:56:42 AM »

For instance, when was the last time you read a great novel by a 16-year-old?

Eragon.
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« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2009, 02:07:51 PM »

Did not know that about Eragon.

Anyway, we are confusing cause and effect. No one is being critical to you because of your age, Ajene. People are being critical because they don't find your tutorials to be helpful as they have explained carefully.

For "general advice" tutorials, (as opposed to instructional ones), you are expected to give credentials up front for why you know what you are saying, or at least have an established identity. This is necessary as if someone were starting a MMORPG, how could they judge if the advice were good or not? You should then draw on and cite that experience while writing: this makes assertions go down smoother with the masses.

So, the fact you didn't mention your own work immediately put many people in the forum on the attack. This is a shame as you do apparently have some experience to go by; even failed attempts can yield useful advice if written right. (I'm assuming here that you never released anything, or else you would have linked to it). Hence why I suggested in the other thread that a postmortem would be more appropriate.

(there's also the issue of the subject matter. MMOs are an odd one for indie development, as you can see from the discussion. To speak on such an issue would require even higher levels of authority imho.)
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Ajene
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« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2009, 02:19:36 PM »

i understand, I didnt post much about my experience with MMO's i've had a couple fail. we had a 2D one nearly up, but the the leader left. so the team disbanded so no. nothing was actually up for long, though we did get pretty close with a couple.

Also by professionals i hope you mean People who went through college, or work in an industry. Or have had many many games put out.
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Soulliard
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« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2009, 03:18:02 PM »

That's pretty much what is meant by professionals. There are a lot of really talented and successful people here.

I think the main reason people don't appreciate the advice you're giving is because it is on the Tutorials forum. Since this is the first place people will go looking for help, it's important that the tutorials be well-written, useful, and specific. That makes this the strictest forum. If you just want to give out general advice or have a friendly discussion on a topic, it's probably better to post in the Technical or Art and Design forums, depending on the topic.
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Chris Whitman
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« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2009, 11:42:23 PM »

For instance, when was the last time you read a great novel by a 16-year-old?

Eragon.

No, he said 'great.'

Also: 'novel.'
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« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2009, 12:08:28 AM »

For instance, when was the last time you read a great novel by a 16-year-old?

Eragon.

No, he said 'great.'

Also: 'novel.'

Zing!
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TeeGee
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« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2009, 12:53:04 AM »

For instance, when was the last time you read a great novel by a 16-year-old?

Eragon.

No, he said 'great.'

Also: 'novel.'
Thanks...
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Tom Grochowiak
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« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2009, 11:04:14 AM »

An MMO is better termed as a "persistent multiplayer game". It's basically a multiplayer game attached to a database. Thus, it's very helpful to have experience with databases and system administration. Beyond the intricacies introduced by the persistent element, I don't see how it's any different than making any other multiplayer game, which already introduces the intricacies of network coding.

A lot of the design intricacies and general grindiness comes from the fact that MMOs tend to be subscription-model games that want people to stay subscribed for a very long time, and the assumption that an MMO has got to be an RPG and thus involve levels and hideous amounts of number crunching.

The fact that it shouldn't be your first project is sort of a given. Listen to people when they say "just try making tetris or breakout or space invaders first". Please please please, listen, there are not enough people who do. I'm tired of hearing about slackass "designers" who talk about cool game ideas they want to make (no, no, I can't code or do art, I'm more of a design guy) but accomplish nothing.

I think I might try making a real tutorial once I get back to working on my minimal MMO, to try and point out that they are 'persistent multiplayer games'. Most of the time you are just choosing when and what you want to save to the database in a way that will let you load it back up easily and not incur a big performance hit.
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Don Andy
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« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2009, 11:32:23 AM »

This whole MMO thing is a craze that I'd rather not see carried over into the TIGSource community Concerned
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Ivan
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« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2009, 11:35:41 AM »

The problem with writing MMOs (in their traditional sense) is that MMOs, aside from being very technically complex software, are also a long term service.

That is, after you are done writing the server and client pieces, you then basically have to  run a company that maintains a relationship with all of its customers and ensures continuous updates and maintenance. Many people will have to be involved in such a project for many years of their life. That is a very difficult thing to achieve even if you are paying them money, let alone if it's a group of volunteers.

There is a good reason why you don't see indie MMOs.
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