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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignWhich kind of combat do you like the most for a beat'em up?
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ArsCreativa
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« on: February 24, 2015, 11:43:31 PM »

Hi!

I'm defining the mechanics for my next project, "Olden Arse", an humoristic beat'em inspired by "Golden Axe", and I have two options to go for the combat system.

The first one is a more slow combat type, like "Renegade", "Final Fight", "D&D arcade" or "Golden Axe" itself, where the enemies needs to be beaten down some times before they die. If you hit them , they got stunned, and you can grab them to make more different attacks.

The second one is a faster combat approach, like "Castle Crashers", "The TMNT arcades" or "Sengoku" series. There are many more enemies, but they are killed easily, and only the hardest ones can be knocked down several times. Grabs and special moves are done more automatically.

I'd like to know which kind of combat type do you like the most?
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Oroboros
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2015, 11:57:41 PM »

Though I grew up playing all of these games, I felt Castle Crasher did a fantastic job modernizing the beat em up genre, offering a great sense of balance and progression as the game progressed into more difficult territory.

Games like Final Fight and Golden Axe suffer from that era of 'eat your quarters' design, which relied on a lot of cheap boss battles and enemies as the game progressed.
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Tobers
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« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2015, 05:36:29 AM »

I definately prefer beating hordes of fodder that lead up to a big boss. I like the fast pace of the horde and contrasts better with a boss fight. That contrast  (along with level design) keeps it from getting tedious.
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ArsCreativa
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« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2015, 11:18:24 AM »

By the feedback received here and in other forums, seems that most people likes the faster combat, but they also doesn't like the "wild smashing buttons" approach. I'll try to merge both worlds, but I don't know how much difficult will be.
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~Tidal
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« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2015, 11:08:09 PM »

River City Ransom
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baconman
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2015, 06:21:42 PM »

Ars: I recommend you play Scott Pilgrim vs. The World; and not underestimate the power of environmentally interactive combat. That, and AI designed with that in mind, has generally led to the funner beat'em'up experience, in my opinion.

Now, you should have numbers of simple, disposable grunts, interspersed with the kind of toughies in older beat'em'ups. This breaks up the tedium involved in dealing with either one, while also allowing more fun, tactical gameplay.

One thing I would suggest is some more active/reflexive form of defense, rather than the passive blocking (or at least block + attack to kara throw/counter attacks).
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Jordgubben
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2015, 12:26:56 PM »

I like how Vitewutifull Joe lets you use enemies as tools. As an example you can kick smaller enemies of screen to collect power ups. The game also lets you punch bullets to send them back at enemies (yes.. you can PUNCH BULLETSHand Joystick Hand Any Key Hand Any Key Hand Any Key). Also skipping vertical movement let's it do a lot off cool things with jumping and dodging. It's a bit different from Golden Axe & co, but I think it still qualifies as the same genre.
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ArsCreativa
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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2015, 06:28:37 AM »

Thanks for the feedback, guys!  Coffee
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gimymblert
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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2015, 11:19:04 AM »

also the kind of final fight or street of rage have enemy dance on 3 lines of engagement, with pattern specific to each of them.

1- The Safe range is where enemy go to stay outside of player range (except occasional range objects, generally limited), it's also kind of a "stock" when there is many enemy. Enemy behavior there is essentially flavor, they either emote, ignore, cheer fellow that fight the player, move to create sensory overload, etc ...
2- Then there is the engagement range, slightly outside of the player's range but directly threatening them, it's usually just one step or two from attack, the player must move to them. There is rarely more than one attack at the time at the beginning and only a small number of enemy goes there at the same time, they tend to move in and out from the stock as the player move toward group of enemy. There is also spatial awareness as some enemy prefer to engage on the back. The delayed reaction to some player action is what make the difficulty adjustment. If the player move forward them, they don't adjust immediately in the common case so the player have a chance to attack, or they have speed lower than the player.
3- The attack range is where the enemy goes to hit the player, moving from the engagement.

This give the game very organic movement pattern and are the building blocks, enemy behavior are generally variation along those 3 distances and with differing attack frequencies, buildup, attack length, recovery, invicibility frame or armor against stun. You have enemy who hit and run (2-3), who like to tease using their speed (2-3 w no hit), enemy who like to stay behind to wait for a misstep, enemy that zig zag the line of engagement, punch bag goes directly into 3 but don't attack immediately, enemy where going from 2 to 3 is an attack and then goes away into 1 (damn ninja), those who run from 1 to 3 then dodge (generally jump) to attack from a different angle, etc...

That what's give flavor to the best old beat'm up and we can still improve on it.
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Alevice
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« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2015, 12:26:17 PM »

I think the slower games can benefit from providing the ai a bit more diversity on each thug type (like a knife wielder guy who would either just slash you on close range or throw its knife on long range, and sniper dudes who would try to knock you back if you try to reach them on close combat), and uneven terrain (like small cliffs or walled sections)/environmental hazards (geysers or electrified areas) would offers a bit more tactical choices. The idea is that the layout/enemy distribution and positioning would make it more of an open ended puzzle.
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quantumpotato
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2015, 07:53:52 PM »

I remember loving Viewtiful Joe's combat system -- hitting enemies with enemies felt right, and having a meter / slow/fast mode to decide between gave the game a ton of flavor.

Someone was developing a Ninja game awhile back on Tigsource (but he stopped updating at some point) which had fighting game/Ninja Gaiden-esque combos. I remember it felt fun figuring out which moves worked where.

I'm personally a big fan of the movement mechanics in fighting games like wavedashing in Smash Bros, Airdashing in Guilty Gear and the flying / dodge mechanic in Tower Fall.

You need at least either a strong, interesting movement system or combat system. I think the former gives you more options for innovative enemies & player choice.
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