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[starsrift]

It shouldn't be.

Okiedokies. 
You're entitled to your opinion, even when it's horribly wrong.   

[mtarini]

Nice article, Photon. I liked many of the considerations in it.
Particularly the one that stresses
"the difference between fighting hard against a game, and fighting to make a game hard". :D:D
I will quote you on that.


Side note: the three most established mechanisms at the very heart of RPGs, that is,
(1) HP
(2) XP
(3) GOLD
are each subject of cyclic crusades like this one (above, they are listed in approximate order of crusade frequency).

I've been participating in a few of these crusades myself, in the games I contribute to making, and I can remember countless RPGs (both tabletop and computer games) which based their claim of superiority (w.t.r. competing models) precisely on the overcoming of any one of these three mechanisms.


Your analysis has some merit, but I think it gets something totally wrong: grinding.

As far as I know, grinding is not an unintended, but difficult to avoid, consequence of certain game-design choices made by designers who are either unaware of it or striving to avoid it.

Quite the opposite.

It is a very much intended (if widely criticized---and rightly so) *objective* of game designers, who want players to play their stuff for much longer than they are able to provide content for. In some contexts, especially outside of the indie community, the most successful games are exactly these who can "trick" their player in the most incredible amount of grinding (see WOW for the paradigmatic example).

While EXP certainly happens to be among the commonest tools used to attain that objective (grinding), it is not the only one, nor it can only be used toward this goal. It is easy to use EXP and still avoid grinding: it is not done very often but that's a deliberate choice.

(from the perspective of the victim of grinding (the player's), griding feels like some drug abuse. You didn't really have fun, you didn't get rewarded significantly, you didn't even get really interested or stimulated, yet you've willingly done it; it feels like someone managed "to turn your game time into a second job", in the words of the game's critique ZeroPunctiation)




tl;dr : grinding is a (deprecable) objective, not an unintended flaw. And is not that related to EXP.

[baconman]

^ True. In fact, I think the greatest argument of this is Sequelitis, Castlevania I vs. II.

"What's the biggest difference between Castlevania and Castlevania II? About seven hours!!"

[ProgramGamer]

No. It's "Awnser: four hours". You gotta get the quotes right mate.

[Alevice]

It shouldn't be.

[JWK5]

It seems whenever people are complaining about Fallout in terms of RPGs they are almost always referring to Fallout 3/New Vegas, not Fallout 1, 2, etc. which I don't think they realize are nearly completely different games mechanics-wise.

[Torchkas]

I literally said Fallout 3.

I haven't actually played the first two yet. As a matter of fact, I haven't completed a single "real" RPG yet. Which is why I went on a tangent.

[gimymblert]

BTW exp is a diversion, in rpg you have basically two orthogonals progression, character progression with exp and world progression through area. You start at green happy valley and end up in hellish techno magic city. The problem is that exp is basically just the fuel to world progression, you have to harvest them to continue, basically you stop progressing so you can progress hence grind ... 

had this problem in okami, I was enjoying the game on the main path and got stuck because I was too weak, I had to stop progressing to farm (limited in number by design) character progression, although those activity where discrete and fun side quest, their enjoyment where diminish because they had became mandatory checklist instead of fun side distraction ....

One way to fix that is to align both progressions, that's what zelda does by giving you heart each time you kill a boss, sidequest and quarter if heart is basically a streamline exp system system for health, heck they even wove what is basically an external xp system by having you hunt collectible per upgrade (golden skulltulla is literally a skill system) which is a great way to give them flavor and reduce the interface clutter. Metroid similarly can be seen having a exp system where you are rewarded for exploring the map thoroughly. It's not call xp but it work in similar fashion, complete a task get rewarded with arbitrary number upgrade, in the case of metroid and zelda it's not amorphous and tied to a "stat".

Another way is more organic, it is to basically make xp the main progression, for example everytime you gain a level it unlock worlds events and even basic enemy learn new trick, basically the world level up with you but it's not just scaling, it's actually introducing stuff, it's like in skyrim if apparition of geants, dragon or story element are tied to your level. In fact you might say game like banjo and mario 64 are using a xp system, the world is gated by your capacity to farm them by completing challenge and puzzle, unlike zelda they are amorphous and also unlock access to skills (which are tied to challenge is space too and sometimes their own currency).

[s0]

had this problem in okami, I was enjoying the game on the main path and got stuck because I was too weak, I had to stop progressing to farm (limited in number by design) character progression, although those activity where discrete and fun side quest, their enjoyment where diminish because they had became mandatory checklist instead of fun side distraction ....

how is this different from being "forced" to explore in metroid if you have too little health?

(just trying to counteract some of the anti exp/anti "grind" bias that always shows up in these threads

[gimymblert]

We are talking about permanent upgrade, if you have little health in metroid it's a problem of consumable placement, which is spawn by dead enemy. Also in metroid your attack stats are barely affected (ignoring weapon upgrades as they double as keys and skills too), just the number of goods (missile) and health, which is a way to control progression without making overwhelming, enemy become more complex but the base skill to defeat them remain mostly constant, which mean that not leveling don't affect your capacity to progress in the game, there is no roadblock because you can't be so weak that enemy are barely affected by your hit, also in typical rpg it's rare that you can battle without taking hit at all, opening you to dying in single hit, evade in game like metroid is entirely on player's skill not a stat so you have the benefit of grind without one of its biggest downside, your basic ability to survive isn't tied to stat.

I kind of stretch xp (traditional)definition above to its closest siblings to show that there is more to the concept and it's malleable. Xp being basically a metric of progress rewarded with a currency, because you completed a task, toward defined milestones, be it skills, relevant stat that affect how you interact the world, access to place or equipment, events, etc ... You can use multiple currency to multiple milestones or intermingle them (for example in skyrim you have an exp per skill that pool to your leveling system that itself generate skill currency to spend on any skill tree)

In princess maker for example you have a multiple stat system that increase or decrease based on your interactions and open or closes new events at some places.

[s0]

We are talking about permanent upgrade, if you have little health in metroid it's a problem of consumable placement, which is spawn by dead enemy.

i mean like, too little max health to survive if youre not a very skilled player

[baconman]

Yeah. Apart from the Varia damage sector gates, there's rarely a place that you CAN'T progress through, if you can avoid damage. And... I think I've seen one or two players bypass Varia altogether AND STILL WIN.

[Alevice]

Yeah 15% runs are viable for a reason. I cant assure you you can do the same on an rpg usually. Like being lvl 1 or 2 and beat them game, as one hit wpuld normailly kill you a the time. Unless this is mario and luigi and you can actually dodge

[vinheim3]

Interesting that you mention that. In Disgaea 2: DHD you can beat the hardest secret boss with a level 1 if you keep every value in the damage formula in mind as well as know how to setup and buff for maximum effect. This is a boss that you normally have to do a lot of setup anyway if you were level 9999

[Alevice]

I havent played any disgaea games admittedly, but I feel SRPGs can be genrally a decent exception, since positioning and unit lineup are far more relevant that exp level per se.

[gimymblert]

Hey I was remind that there is a way to adjust "grind" for casual and hardcore alike, make the grinding element needed for optional limited and temporal upgrade. Health, magic, potion, any temporary buff are such options, as the game advance your inventory grow by spending currency earn through progress. The game remain skill based but casual can still handling it by making a stop and refueling, it makes a decisions should I press on or refuel? it's the zelda/metroid/mario method. Skill player will push their risk while noob will refuel, it's dynamic difficulty adjustment but player drive, much better than procedural dynamic difficulty adjustment, don't patronize player like gold tanuki, works essentially the same functionally.

Oh and that's how souls game fake their difficulties (with actual souls).

[DifferentName]

If you're calling it a grind when you're trying to get more XP, it's probably because the gameplay is boring. In a really fun game, I enjoy playing because the game is fun, and then I get the bonus of my character getting new abilities. The games where you feel like it's a grind probably have overly simple and repetitive gameplay. Like a boring combat system, where you're interested to see the new character abilities, but there's not much else there to keep you entertained. So while I agree traditional RPG systems are often flawed, I see the flaw in an overly simplified combat system without enough interesting decisions.

...in rpg you have basically two orthogonals progression, character progression with exp and world progression...
One way to fix that is to align both progressions

I agree. Even with fun gameplay, if the level progression goes too slow for the world progression, it can force players to repeat areas too much. If done right, this can allow players to customize their own difficulty. I feel like Diablo 3 did this, allowing you to fly through the levels with minimal exploration, getting to difficult areas with a lower level for a greater challenge. Then, when things get tough, you can stick around that area a bit longer, exploring more side dungeons. There's enough variety with the dungeons, that you don't have to just reload the level and play it again to level up.

[Jordgubben]

Grinding is basically an repetition, but repetition is not a bad thing. Repetition without experimentation, improvement and perfection is a bad thing. RPGs (and especially Japanese ones) are a lot about optimization and tweaking. In a way they the game equivalent of how Lean manufacturing (from Japan) reduces waste. They are also like how calligraphy artist (also in Japan, may this be a pattern?) finds the perfect strokes.

A RPG with solid mechanics may not be a hard geme, but will always make you think this: "Hmm.. That went sort of well, but would it work better if I <insert idea here>?".

The exp and loot is just a short term carrot to stay in the same place a little longer and try more things.

[JWK5]

Though there are a lot of designers and gamers seeing it as boring or unnecessary grinding can actually be pretty relaxing and rewarding. Making your character choices is like planting seeds and grinding is like watering the garden. It is a gradual time commitment made to reap specific rewards. Add in random loot drops and it takes on an almost casino slot machine element.

Playing the Dragon Quest games, particularly the earlier ones, gives me an almost zen-like sense of peace and comfort and I get wrapped up in it like a warm blanket. The stories are fairly sparse but endearing and the treasure hunting and grinding give you a nice slow relaxed pace. The repetition becomes a soothing beat you play along to.

[gimymblert]

I wonder how many hardcore gamer water their garden