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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperPlaytesting4x0ng (particle panic puzzle action)
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davido
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« on: March 20, 2015, 10:06:15 AM »

I am developing 4x0ng, the sequel to 2x0ng and 3x0ng. You can download 4x0ng for Windows or Linux here: http://dto.itch.io/4x0ng and also see videos there. In 4x0ng you control a robot trying to clean up particles in an overheating nuclear reactor. Use the arrows/numpad/joystick to move. You leave a sparkly trail behind you when moving; press the SHIFT key or joystick button to activate the trail and clean up particles. When the DANGER level reaches 100, you're doomed.

This is partly based on the old Atari 2600 games "Reactor" and "China Syndrome" but with my own twists on the gameplay. I'm hoping to create an intense retro arcade experience that can please and challenge the player. I would greatly appreciate any feedback, criticisms, or suggestions you might have. And I hope you enjoy the game! You can download 4x0ng from http://dto.itch.io/4x0ng. Please be sure to read the gameplay notes on the itch.io page!

Some screenshots:





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OutoMaisteri
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2015, 04:24:44 AM »

Played quite a few sessions and though I didn't get too far (level 5) I feel I have quite a lot to say.

First impressions
Cool idea, very simple and easily understandable gameplay, but also very perplexing if you haven't read the gameplay notes like you mentioned. It embraces its retro heritage very well: it "feels" like an old arcade game without actually being clunky. The game is overall OK as it is, but there's a few things I'd advice looking into.

Controls
I take it the controls are as they are on purpose, but I didn't find them totally enjoyable. The weird feeling of constant momentum made the character very peculiar/challenging to control. Kind of felt like it had a mind of its own and it was "forcing" me to move diagonally all the time. This made me hit the walls and such unnecessarily often and I felt like it's like that only to add artificial difficulty. I'd like the game better if the character would actually respond to my current input instead of making me "counter steer" to change direction. Hopefully you under what I mean. And for the record, I played the game with both a keyboard and a gamepad/joystick and this applies to both.

Particle collision
Again, I take it that the random nature of the particles is by design, but some times it makes things infuriating. You're tracking one, expecting it to bounce into one direction and then it does the complete opposite. I feel it would be better if the particles didn't make such extreme changes in their trajectory. Also, though a very minor issue, the way the particles "glitch" into the walls during collisions caught my eye immediately. I guess it might be part of the reason why the collisions felt so random, but I take it it's just a visual issue. A bit distracting nonetheless.

Assessing threats
Is there any actual difference between the two different colored particles? I found no mention about them and couldn't notice any difference during gameplay. Also, the notes mentioned that the particles increase the danger level when colliding with walls. Is this an immediate effect? And do the particles become more dangerous with each collision? If they do, they should probably increase in size or change color to inform the player somehow so they can make meaningful decisions. And if the particles don't become more dangerous, maybe they should? Because...

Sense of achievement, rewarding the player
...there's really no sense of achievement in the game right now. Sure, you advance in levels, but that alone doesn't make the game rewarding to play. Cleaning up the particles should be engaging, since that's what the game is all about. The simplest solution would be to add a simple score system (with the aforementioned more dangerous particles giving more points) or something along the same lines. This is based off old Atari games after all and those are all about the score, right? Point being, the core gameplay should feel more rewarding.

"Menu" keys
Lastly, a few short mentions about the "menu" keys.

  • Why such peculiar menu keys? "Page Up", "Page Down" and "Control + Q"? Is this part of the "retro feel" or did you just happen to pick such odd keys?
  • Does "Page Up" actually do anything? Seemed to do absolutely nothing for me.
  • In your screenshots I see "Escape" and "Control + M" keys also mentioned. Are the screenshots from another version?

Summary
The core of the game is solid, it has a very distinct retro look and feel. It's not a bad game by any standard, but I don't see myself getting that "one more try" feeling as it is right now. The game needs to hook the player better, make the moment-to-moment gameplay more exciting and rewarding.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 07:01:06 AM by OutoMaisteri » Logged
davido
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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2015, 05:42:42 AM »

Thanks so much for your comments and criticisms OutoMaisteri! I really appreciate your taking the time to play and write up your thoughts. Below I'll respond point by point with some ramblings about how I might address these issues for the next version 0.4.

1. I'd like to improve the controls and player movement. Perhaps lower (or zero) inertia would be a better choice than the floaty movement it has now. As for always going diagonally, i wonder if it's a bug in my code? i'll try more with keyboard to make sure it isn't just an issue with joystick responsiveness. (What joystick did you use, if i may ask?) Holding one arrow should always lead to orthogonal thrust (up down left right only), but with existing momentum you might see diagonal movement a lot.

2. Particle movement needs reworked, yes. I'll make them more predictable.

3. The different colored particles don't currently behave any differently, but they might soon. Expanding fat particles could be cool, and increasing the danger level of some particles might present the user with interesting choices, as you say.

4. Sense of achievement. I hear what you're saying and I would definitely like to expand the rewards. Maybe a temporary trail extender powerup, or something that slows down the particles for a time. One issue: numeric scoring is difficult in this type of game because you're trying to minimize the number of overall particles. If danger gives more points, then competing for lowest score might be best.

5. The keybindings might be a weird stylistic choice; I used PgUp and PgDown as if they were the Atari "GAME SELECT" and "RESET" buttons. I used this scheme on 3x0ng. Also yes, PageUp and the other keybindings are currently disabled until I flesh out those features. The screenshots are from a previous version. Control-R for reset might be a better choice. Control S for select, etc.

I will post here again with a new version soon. Hopefully v0.4 will address the issues you mention.
Thanks so much for playing the game. I hope you enjoyed, and I"ll keep you updated.
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davido
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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2015, 05:44:59 AM »

A thought. One of my motivations for the player's inertia is that if you can't turn-on-a-dime, you have to plan ahead to see where you want to go. But if it causes frustration, i'll reduce or eliminate it. The ship could move like the Arilou ship in Star Control.
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davido
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2015, 05:45:58 AM »

Maybe capturing three of the same color particles in a row causes a bonus.
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OutoMaisteri
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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2015, 07:00:28 AM »

Just to be on the safe side, I'll try to explain the control issue in a bit more detail. An example should do the trick:

I'm currently moving diagonally down and left (pressing both down and left arrow-keys simultaneously). I want to chance my trajectory to going straight to the left, so I let go of the down arrow-key (now only pressing the left arrow-key). Despite the change in input, I'm still moving diagonally down and left just like before. If I truly want to change my trajectory to going straight to the left I have two choices:

  • Come to a full stop and then press the left arrow-key again
  • Press the up arrow-key during movement to steer the robot upwards

You don't indeed have to make the player turn on a dime, as having to plan your movements makes the game more challenging, but it would be nice if (in this example) the vertical input would decay automatically so I wouldn't have to always "counter steer" to change my trajectory. It would make sense that you could make the robot change trajectory faster by "counter steering", but being forced to do it all the time doesn't feel too good.

And since you asked, I used a Xbox 360 -controller as my "joystick". It suffered from the same exact issue, though using a joystick makes this control scheme feel a bit more natural.
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davido
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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2015, 08:30:04 AM »

Ok. Thanks. I'm working on v0.4 today and should have results within a few hours.
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davido
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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2015, 12:36:34 PM »

Hi, I've updated 4x0ng to version 0.4, with many of the changes we discussed. I think it's more fun now.
Link: http://dto.itch.io/4x0ng

Changes:
1. Particle/wall collisions are now mostly predictable.
2. Particle/core collisions have a clockwise "spin" applied by the core's rotation. This helps prevent repeating paths and getting stuck.
3. The issue with diagonal thrust not decaying properly has been fixed. Inertia is still the same, but I think the specific problem you describe (quote below) has been taken care of.
4. The danger level is now floating-point, and particle danger levels have been re adjusted per level.
5. Hazards are more frequent.
6. The danger level is now visually represented by a color graph-bar on the sides of the screen (check the new video on itch)
7. There is a new "gamma" particle that moves faster, is fatter, and more dangerous in terms of collisions with the wall being hotter. You should take care of the green gammas as soon as you see them.
8. Missing keybindings no longer shown.
9. Better reset keybinding (control r)

Let me know if this feels like more fun. I want to add some music and/or more stuff.

Just to be on the safe side, I'll try to explain the control issue in a bit more detail. An example should do the trick:

I'm currently moving diagonally down and left (pressing both down and left arrow-keys simultaneously). I want to chance my trajectory to going straight to the left, so I let go of the down arrow-key (now only pressing the left arrow-key). Despite the change in input, I'm still moving diagonally down and left just like before. If I truly want to change my trajectory to going straight to the left I have two choices:

  • Come to a full stop and then press the left arrow-key again
  • Press the up arrow-key during movement to steer the robot upwards

You don't indeed have to make the player turn on a dime, as having to plan your movements makes the game more challenging, but it would be nice if (in this example) the vertical input would decay automatically so I wouldn't have to always "counter steer" to change my trajectory. It would make sense that you could make the robot change trajectory faster by "counter steering", but being forced to do it all the time doesn't feel too good.

And since you asked, I used a Xbox 360 -controller as my "joystick". It suffered from the same exact issue, though using a joystick makes this control scheme feel a bit more natural.
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OutoMaisteri
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2015, 09:30:24 AM »

Really wanted to get around to testing the new version a bit sooner, but damn Cities: Skylines robbed me of the past few days :D Anyways, back to business...

A big thumbs up for you! The new version is pretty damn good! The controls are great now, the particles behave a lot better, the graph-bar is a great addition and I really like the new "gamma" particle. But! As there's always more room for improvement, let's give some more feedback.

Danger level (floating-point)
I'm not sure if the new presentation of the danger level is the best. I didn't remember the change when I began testing and for a while I was quite perplexed about new look. At first I though you might've turned it into a "reverse score system" or something like we discussed, as the three extra digits really makes the it look like a score. After examining its behavior for a while though, I realized it's still the same system. But! There was a mix-up and that's not a good thing.

After thinking about the issue for a bit, I though it actually might work well if you'd display the danger level as a percentage. I feel it would quite naturally clue the player in that the value should be between be kept under 100, which is something you'll want to get across fast. As far as I could see the last two digits weren't in use currently (always at zero), so you should probably display the danger level as "53.6 %" for example. Having the danger level displayed super accurately is a bit counter intuitive anyway in my opinion, as the player is most interested in the 0-100 range, not the fractions (you don't need 74.538 when 74.5 is enough).

Danger level (graph-bar)
Though I like this addition very much and you should definitely keep it in, there's one issue I had with it: It didn't show where its cap was. This made it very difficult to asses how close to failing you actually are. Sure, this isn't as much of an issue after you've played a game or two and know where the cap is, but not knowing it beforehand significantly reduces its usefulness. Having the full length of the bar visible at all times makes it way more useful.

Difficulty/game progression
After playing a few games, I noticed the difficulty really ramps up at level 5. I managed to get to level 6 once and it felt like total overkill at that point. Don't know if you've paid much attention to the difficulty progression yet, but let me just say I know first hand how easy it is to underestimate your own game's difficulty level. When you're testing your game day in and day out, it becomes really hard to scale the difficulty for new players.

Lastly (like you said yourself), you really should add music to the game if you can. I think it would make a tremendous difference for the "feel" of the game.

And that's it! Great job so far, keep up the good work!
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davido
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2015, 01:09:27 PM »

Thanks for this great feedback. Im glad you enjoy the game.

Yes it's hilarious that I never thought to include a percent sign! Thanks for this suggestion.
I can change the graphbar to draw a background slot that it fills.
I'd like to spend some time smoothing the difficulty as you suggest.

I'm considering incorporating 4x0ng as one of the gameplay modes in skyw0r: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=46941.0
so that you could land on some planets and infiltrate a base as a guy in a robo suit and THEN, get to 4x0ng as a reactor you must shutdown before escaping back to your ship and flying to another sector!

here's some new music i'm making. It's about 1 minute long, possibly for one of the reactor levels. or a title screen. https://soundcloud.com/david-otoole-3/interscalerxw0r .... and also here's one from 3x0ng https://soundcloud.com/david-otoole-3/bwn3

Enjoy! I'll keep you posted about new versions!
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davido
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2015, 01:24:26 PM »

you talked about gamedev experience,
i'd be happy to check out anything you want to show, if you want me to return the favor of doing some play/feedback.
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OutoMaisteri
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2015, 01:31:13 PM »

I'll be waiting for the next version Wink

I actually thought about trying out skyw0r around the time you posted it, but never ended up doing it for some reason. Maybe I ought to give it a go at some point.

Also, I gave a quick listen to the two tracks you linked. I think they could both work, but in very different circumstances. I feel the first would work very well in a "high stakes" minigame as a part of skyw0r (based on what you said and what I've seen of the game) as it has a "impending doom" kinda vibe to it. The second track would work much better if the game was a self contained, more arcade-style experience, as its more upbeat and "funky".
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davido
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« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2015, 06:36:50 PM »

Hi OutoMaisteri,
I've updated the game Smiley http://dto.itch.io/4x0ng
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davido
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« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2015, 07:37:34 PM »

Actually, make sure to update to v0.6, I briefly had up an 0.5 with buggy gravity, now 0.6 is the fixed version.
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davido
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« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2015, 05:28:28 AM »

Updated to v0.8, now with combat! You can shoot proton bullets at enemies, and even strafe by holding the fire button to lock direction. There are also new enemies to smash!

You can find the update at http://dto.itch.io/4x0ng

And here's a glitchy splosion pic:
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OutoMaisteri
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« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2015, 11:32:58 AM »

I'm back from the dead, sorry to keep you waiting! I've never been too much of a forum person and the past month or so has been so hectic that I've completely forgot to visit. Anyway, let's get to the feedback. One important thing to note though: I didn't make it past level 5, which affects a few of the points I make.

More sounds == good
Nice to hear (pun not intended) that you've put more sounds in the game. Always makes it more enjoyable. The countdown right before the next level is especially welcome. Gives you a nice adrenaline boost to fight for those few more seconds.

One thing that struck me as odd though, were the level end/change "jingles". They're all different for every level (as far as I could tell by my testing session), with differing lenghts and tones. Not really much else to say about them, but that they just seemed a bit weird.

General graphics stuff
- "Gamma particle" size increase every bounce is good. Really gives you an incentive to take care of them.
- Like I expected, the dark background works really well with the "danger level" bars. Lookin' good.

Difficulty
The first level seemed a bit on the hard side. The amount of "plasma enemies" was greater than any of the latter levels, which I found peculiar. I could have five of them flying around at the same time in the first level, but only one or two in all the later ones.

Controls
I did a more gamepad (Xbox 360 pad to be specific) oriented testing session this time around and noticed two issues. The first one was deadzones. When playing with analogue sticks, especially ones that are a bit worn out, small deadzones often become a problem. My particular pad's both sticks have a bit of leeway to the left, so in many games the player character moves to the left even when the stick should be at rest. Now this isn't a huge problem in 4x0ng, as you spend the majority of your time moving around, which practically eliminates the problem, but you might want to look into it.

The second issue was a bigger one. You remember how I talked about the momentum problem way back when? How I had to "counter-steer" to adjust my direction? The same issue still exists on the gamepad. I think you already know how to handle it.

On the note of controls, there was one "problem" with keyboard controls as well. In particular, if I was moving diagonally I couldn't always shoot, as the keyboard sometimes had problems with three simultaneous key presses. You of course can't really do much about it as it's more of a hardware related issue, but just thought I'd let you know. Changing the Fire-key might help in some cases, but most likely it wouldn't eliminate the problem.

Shooting
This is more of an opinion than anything, so feel free to disregard this. Anyways, I though that shooting (as it is) made the following enemies more of an inconvinience rather than a threat. The moment they came out of the core's protection, I could just shoot them down with rapid fire protons, making them pretty harmless. Now, I'm sure that once the general difficulty ramps up, the situation will be completely different as you'll have your hands full with everything else, but I think you might want to neft the shooting mechanics a bit. Maybe limit the amount of protons you can have on screen? Give the player some sort of ammo pool? Just a few quick ideas.

Level effects/"mutators"
A really great addition to the core gameplay. Every level feels more fresh as you it's always different from the one you played last time. I never got to see any others than Plasma and Gravity, but you definitely should add more of them. Maybe even combined ones? Speaking of...

Testing tools
The ability to set the starting level would be greatly appreciated as a tester. Trying to get to the later levels gets really tiresome after failing the first few for the umpteenth time. I'm sure you'd like some feedback on the latter levels as well.

General usability
Here's the biggest thing: I think you should start working on the usability/ease-of-use/tutorialisation of the game. As I don't know how far from complete the game actually is, I might be jumping the gun a bit here, but it never hurts to put some effort into usability.

First off, if you want the game to be fully playable with a joystick/gamepad, you should make sure you can restart and quit the game with one as well. It's really inconvenient to keep having to reach to your keyboard every time you die.

When I got to the second level for the first time, I had no idea what the "Plasma" text meant. I noticed the core looked different, but I didn't realize immediately that it was lethal to touch it and the "Plasma" text didn't give me any kind of context towards this. Only later on did I realize that the core had the "plasma enemy" overlaid on top of it, so this was partly because of my own stupidity, but you should think about this.

I also was completely unaware about the ability to "strafe shoot" until I read about it on this thread. I've had similar experiences in the past, where I've had to read about gameplay features from either from this thread or from itch-page. This of course if ok during development, but you really should start working to change this. More people will be more likely to test the game out if they don't have to read a wall of text to understand the mechanics.

---

This was supposed to be just a short and quick reply, but I guess I'm incapable of that. I hope you find all of this helpful again and feel free to hit me up whenever the next version comes out. Hopefully I won't dissapear for two months again  Grin
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davido
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« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2015, 05:21:58 PM »

Hello and thanks for this wonderful response!!! Smiley
Been busy with a few other things lately, I will totally implement your suggestions in the next version. I'll be back to gamedev soon.
Thanks again for this feedback. Smiley
I'm working on a reboot of 2x0ng which may include all this code/assets, called 2x0ng Plus Remix or something like that.
Part of meshing the two might be to limit the firable protons to 1, and have it bounce back like the 2x0ng Squareball.
And adding little feet to the guy, ?
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