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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperBusinessAny advice on assembling an unpaid team?
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Cheesegrater
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« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2015, 04:44:48 AM »

Hi Cheesegrater, I can understand what you're saying about the NDA, but I think you're misunderstanding the point.

I understand your point, I just disagree with it.

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As the NDA (at least in the way I referring to it) is not to diminish my team's overall freedom

The point of any contract, including an NDA, is to diminish freedom / restrict behavior.

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The NDA is to keep them from disclosing any particular information related to the game project that they are working on for/with me.

I understand that. My point is, if I put together a piece of work on your project - even if it is an important piece of work that you think would reveal a spoiler for your game, I'm not going to sign a piece of paper that says I can't use it in another project unless you pay me to, because I don't know you. If your project falls apart through no fault of mine, I don't want my time to have been entirely wasted.

I'm sure there are other people that wouldn't have this problem, but when you're trying to find free help I'm not sure you can afford to cut out any portion of the available talent pool.
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joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2015, 09:22:24 AM »

Catguy, while I can certainly understand that you a very cautious person and weary about having a company take advantage of you. You need to consider that the companies (Indie or AAA) out there are equally as cautious and weary.

Your thought process, such as "I only work with people who impress me" and "I am hesitant to babysit a client", "An NDA makes me think you value your business more than you value me", simply put that is a very one-sided way of thinking. Whether you work for yourself or someone else, you always need to keep in mind that the work you do must be mutually beneficial. I.e. you are getting paid, are able to expand and have creative freedom, etc. but also that the work you do benefits your employer, contractor, or whomever it is you are working for.

If your only consideration is "how will this benefit me", then I really don't see how that type of person could become successful. But that is just me and my philosophy.


That's the thing though -- I help out and provide value and benefits to teams for a living. That's my job. I am not alone in this perspective - Most people who have become capable enough to make good game code or art do it professionally. So you have to consider: What does your team offer that's better than all of the teams who offer money?

We're talking about you trying to convince someone to donate thousands and thousands of dollars worth of their time to you. Do not underestimate how much you're asking for.

A little bit more advice before I part from this thread:

You stated you can write and make greybox/placeholder 3d art, and want to make the game in unreal. Those are almost all of the skills you need to start making the game. Both Unreal4 and Unity5 (which offers very a similar rendering/visual engine) provide relatively low barrier-for entry ways to start coding your game. Make it and as progress accumulates you will be able to recruit people who are capable.
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Polyflare
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« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2015, 08:30:42 PM »

I had written a very long reply to this thread but have decided against posting it due to the touchy subject. Sometimes unpaid work is acceptable but in most cases it is not. Instead I'll just say the following:

The issues raised by Cheesegrater and Catguy are very important and should not be ignored. We are specifically discussing an unpaid team here which behaves differently to one that is paid. When a worker is compensated for their work then it is fair for the company to protect its investment and in this case the worker should be the one that bends over for the company. When a worker is not compensated for their work however then the opposite should happen: The company (And the person who manages it) bends over for the worker as it is the worker's investment that is at risk and not the company's.
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Aceria
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« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2015, 03:45:11 AM »

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Oh and is it wise to ask the team to sign a non disclosure agreement?
It is most likely not, unless you have the next Minecraft on your hands. If you do have that, you shouldn't have any difficulties finding funding to develop it and start a legit company.

Honestly, if you're serious about making your game, you most likely won't get it done with a team that works for free. They will generally stop working after a while or when you reach that point where it isn't that much fun to work on the project anymore. It can work, but set your expectations accordingly.
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wisetaner
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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2015, 05:35:35 PM »

After reading the most recent responses, I noticed/realized that the focus of this discussion has gone off track. Because in my original post, although I did ask for "advice on assembling an unpaid team" and also about the NDA, I also stated that "If my team and I are able to get crowdfunding, I will be paying them a respectable wage, along with a percentage of the earning the final game makes after completion." (Still working out the details)

So unless some of you did not read my entire original post before responding about your concerns regarding the, "NDA" and "...unpaid team", I really don't know what the on-going conflict is about. I mean, Catguy, Aceria, Cheesegrater, and Polyflare, you did read all of my original post, I hope. Yes?

Please do not misunderstand, I am not upset and I don't want anyone else upset, or confused, etc. I am only trying to get this discussion back on the track and make certain that everyone is in full understanding of my original message.

I hope this helps any confusion.
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joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2015, 11:23:05 PM »

When I say 'unpaid team' I mean a team that isn't paid a regular salary or rate up front. In my experience rev share/equity/future funding/other forms of maybe money is usually considered 'unpaid' by freelancers.
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Aceria
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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2015, 05:38:36 AM »

I mean, Catguy, Aceria, Cheesegrater, and Polyflare, you did read all of my original post, I hope. Yes?

You also asked for advice on the NDA thing, which is why I answered that. I also briefly touched upon your main question, so I'm not seeing the problem with going off-topic here.

If you get the funding it's not an unpaid team anymore. If you're asking them to do a year of work for the possibility of getting paid, you'll probably have trouble finding the talent you need. Unless you have some serious numbers to show that your project has a 100% chance of being funded and making money after release, I doubt anyone would be eager to jump on board. You'd also have to look at a full year of backpay, which is an insane amount of money for 3-5 people (not sure about your country, but assume you pay them whatever they cost + 50% for taxes and stuff, and that's just for wages).

While point 'n click games are making somewhat of a return, it's not exactly a huge untapped market for you to dive in (in fact, there are still companies that pump out these type of games on a regular basis).

Do you need that first year to develop a prototype or something? Maybe look at making a very rough prototype, concept art & a kickstarter video instead and go for crowd-funding sooner?
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Layl
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« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2015, 11:10:00 PM »

I think what would be good here is if you specify exactly what kind of NDA you want to actually use. I previously signed one that simply prevented me from copying over any existing code on the project. (after a bit of discussion I convinced them to let it not cover my own contributions to the code base) If all you're looking for is that people don't disclose the story, you may just want an informal paper saying that or just ask the people you're working with not to disclose it. If you can't trust the people you're working with not to post the story somewhere when you ask them not to then there are bigger problems than a NDA could fix.

The thing people are afraid of here, I think, is NDAs that prevent people from working on the project to use created utility assets (generic brushes, houdini digital assets, etc), tools, utility code libraries, etc in other projects.
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wisetaner
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« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2015, 05:26:40 PM »

Thank you everyone for your input and suggestions! I think I have a broader grasp of how to start my Indy Game Development company. As with all things in life there have been some slight difference of opinions in the thread. But overall I think the main point that everyone (myself as well) agrees on, is that everyone wants proper compensation for the work that they do.

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Wise = Accepting that you will always be learning new information and that no one knows everything. When you make a mistake, do not let pride rule you, instead accept, acknowledge, learn from, and move on from that mistake.
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