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[jamesprimate]

often discussed, still worth a read:

http://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2015/04/violence-is-boring-the-tedium-of-violence-as-progr.html

i couldnt agree more, and im glad to see it talked about in terms like "tedious" and "boring", because its exactly that. honestly at this point if im playing a game and it has me mowing down "bad guys" for some flimsy pretense, ill almost certainly put it down. not that violence as a mechanic is always bad design necessarily, just that IMHO at this point has to be bringing something really new to the table to not be completely tiresome. and this isnt a dig at AAAs or FPSs, it goes for everybody.

seems like as devs its a good discussion to have. is there a reason to keep making PEW PEW PEW games? what do YOU think?

previously:

http://www.destructoid.com/why-violence-in-videogames-is-getting-boring-37884.phtml

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/hotline-miami-dennis-wedin-jonatan-soderstrom-interview-447406

[oahda]

Finally someone who agrees.

I'm 100% tired of it. And not just tired of it because it's been overdone, but it's so bizarre that something that should be so awful (killing) has become such a normalised thing. It's the standard mechanic. The standard content. If a game needs something more in a spot, that's what they throw in. A battle. Nobody bats an eye or gives it a second thought.

But I do. I don't feel like stepping into the shoes of a murderer and be expected to sympathise or empathise with them, no matter the objectives, all the time. It makes no sense to me. Shouldn't killing be something the bad guys do? Something you should strive to be above? Even comic superheroes seem to work a lot more by this ethic (and many others mainstream games have not yet matured into and people like gators are currently actively working against). Why are games, gamers and game developers still so immature? Something isn't mature just because it's not suitable for children. Often the opposite, in fact.

tl;dr you all know by now that i find this downright bizarre – fite me

[JWK5]

It depends.

I think a big part of the draw is that violence is not something most of us are prone to, so video games can sometimes be cathartic in that regard. I've read studies that show that playing violent video games can make people more aggressive, but those studies fail to elaborate or put the whole picture into perspective (for example, do the people in the studies tend to become aggressive when frustrated in general, does their aggression coincide or escalate with their general competitiveness rather than video games specifically, etc.).

I'd never want to harm someone if it could be avoided (i.e. if it wasn't required defensively) but I won't bat an eye at blowing characters to bits in a video game. Not because I am desensitized to the violence, but because I don't recognize it as being actual violence rather I see it more like acting or play fighting, or more often as a parody of violence.

That said, while there are some games that definitely do call for it (Street Fighter, Call of Duty, etc.) not every game needs it and some would do better without it, or at least with alternatives to it. I agree that violence has become a general content cop-out and it is getting monotonous, much like sexualizing it has its time and place and that is not "all the time" and "everywhere".

[jamesprimate]

Finally someone who agrees.

tl;dr you all know by now that i find this downright bizarre – fite me

ahahah yeah i almost gave you a shoutout in the OP! whats weird is that there is like infinity ways of even using the same game shooting / combat mechanic (if you must), just having it not be "every single game is a mass murder simulator" lol. like, look at the hype around splatoon! or even like with the deus ex games, have non-lethal or stealth options be just as viable as the carnage route. makes things much more interesting, immersive and replayable.

[gimymblert]

The main problem is often that killing is a literally a filler, I mean even when you wove it into the plot, you don't need to kill 100 people to make a point (the last of us, bioshock infinite). That and walking through empty space ...

It's easy though, place enemies, tweak variable, it's procedural experience.

The counter measure is to spam a new mechanics in equal measure (jumping, driving, fishing, collecting, you name it) instead of using that to actually express something (paper please use variation of this routine to tell much more than the routine itself, it's a way to know character, to understand and enact on stake, a way to convey theme, etc ...)

Outside of aimlessly wandering empty space, adventure games are closer to a game with variety based on a universal input with contextual click. I'm slowly trying to build a game format that goes away with those traditions.

[JWK5]

With Deus Ex: Human Revolution, one of the biggest points of contention many people had was that you couldn't go through the whole game with stealth alone, that the boss fights locked you into direct confrontation. I think a lot more people are wanted alternatives to violence or at least the Rambo approach than most developers realize.

[Nillo]

is there a reason to keep making PEW PEW PEW games?

The simple answer is that it's the easiest way to make a game exciting. Conflict is exciting. Almost every good story has some type of conflict in it, between folks who are fundamentally opposed to each other. So how would you introduce conflict in a video game, if not with combat?

I guess a good example of non-violent conflict in a video game would be the Phoenix Wright series. Do you think those are going in the right direction?

[gimymblert]

The fun fact is that phoenix wright's creator wanted to give the feeling of a fighting game in adventure game (source needed).

Harvest moon is non violent, driving game, the sims ... there is plenty genre with non violent theme and which are popular (see also the casual market). A good stakes is all needed to create tension, not even conflict. The japaneese version of the 3 acts system don't invoke conflict at all see (Kishōtenketsu)

[jamesprimate]

you know, the rambo thing is an apt analogy really. body count seems to grow the less you have to say. the first movie there was only 1 death! http://www.slashfilm.com/rambo-death-chart/ "murder as filler"

[oahda]

is there a reason to keep making PEW PEW PEW games?

The simple answer is that it's the easiest way to make a game exciting. Conflict is exciting.

Not necessarily. Not to me. Not in this way.

I do play Zelda games, despite their fair amount of fighting, but only because the rest of them is so good. All the focus on puzzles and temples. The sidequests and the exploration. The Zelda games would be fantastic games even without a single fight thanks to all of the other great content to me. Zelda is already established and won't change, but I can see other developers doing a Zelda-style game free of the fighting and making great games on that premise (Rime seems to be heading in that direction).

Uncovering secrets and figuring things out is exciting.

[gimymblert]

That remind me playing mass effect 2 and cursing at the fight sequence that dragged for no good reason, I shifted to easy and use any strategic advantage and they were still too long. Dialog felt so good in mass effect 2 especially with the implementation of interrupt and also because you comb through information first and make a choice after rythm.

From all AAA game, on steam bioshock infinite has the highest player completion rate, also the highest "easy mode enable" rate.

I played mgs2 in exactly two way, super easy for story and the highest difficulty afterward (I completed tanker that way).

[s0]

ok, so is this about violence/conflict as a mechanic or the aesthetics of killing? because splatoon is still a shooter where you can "kill" your "enemies", right? it's not called killing but mechanically it's identical to fragging someone in unreal tournament.

i think lots of games (most rpgs for instance) place too much emphasis on combat when they could be focusing on other more interesting stuff. i personally don't mind violence as an aesthetic (except excessive gore, that shit is gross) but i can see why people would. idk i dont really want to debate this so bye

[gimymblert]

dum you are always making great point or eliciting good thoughts, y no debate 

[oahda]

You don't have to debate. Just express your opinions.

[jamesprimate]

interestingly, it seems like everyone agrees that its done mostly just because its easy. both from a dev perspective and a narrative perspective.

[JWK5]

I can enjoy my Mortal Kombat along with my Harvest Moon, just don't put my Mortal Kombat in my Harvest Moon...  Actually, that would just be McDonald's Food Processing: The Video Game.

[jamesprimate]

sort of weird thing that always gets left out of these conversations is SPORTS GAMES.

[s0]

i don't want to debate because this subject makes me slightly uncomfortable. see, i have this unresolved inner conflict regarding violence in media: on the one hand im extremely squeamish when it comes to real violence. i make a point of not watching any news broadcasts or anything that depicts real people getting killed. i saw a terrorist execution video once and i remember being shocked/depressed for days because of it. otoh, like i said i have 0 problem with fictional violence (within some limits), especially videogame violence. i already said in some other thread that i don't really get "immersed" in videogame worlds a lot so maybe that has sth to do with it. anyway, ive been pondering for a long time whether this makes me a "bad person" or at least a hypocrite.

also the original article disses bloodborne and im too much of a fanboy to be level headed about this.

[oahda]

sort of weird thing that always gets left out of these conversations is SPORTS GAMES.

They're versions of existing games (sports) that happen to be free of killing. Sure there are goofy versions of sports games (Mario sports series for example), but generally people try to stay true to the original sports, or with some twists (usually not killing).

The discussion is about people with artistic freedom (not tied to make the game like a preëxisting sport) never really using that artistic freedom to do anything else than violence.

[Cobralad]

if only we could find any game-developer to make a good non violent game...