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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesthe tedium of violence as progression
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RJAG
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« Reply #220 on: May 11, 2015, 04:23:46 PM »

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oooh ok so were talking specifically about the "core" games sphere. i was thrown off by the word casual because when i read that in connection with games i think farmville, candy crush, bejeweled, snood, peggle, temple run etc, all of which are nonviolent games. theres nothing risky or difficult about making a nonviolent game that appeals to so-called "casual gamers", it's actually probably harder to sell a *violent* game to them. but when you say "casuals" you mean like CoD players, right?

Oh yes, I am very sorry I did not understand the correct terminology. I usually don't hear people differentiate between casuals and "core" gamers. My bad. You're right in your understanding now, I meant Dark Souls is bringing in "Core" gamers, not "Casuals". Now I understand the difference is important and will try my best to use the correct terminology from now on.

sorry but i just dont think this is true. there are droves of popular mainstream nonviolent games and lots of "safe" nonviolent designs. there are adventure games, puzzle games, (time) management games, sports games, lots of abstract card & board games, gambling, there's minecraft and its various clones where combat exists but is unimportant etc. etc. people itt have actually posted lists.

making nonviolence fun for certain "core" gamers who play violent games is hard. making nonviolence in games fun for pretty much everyone else isn't.

Great points.

I'll have to concede and agree that most likely this isn't true since you are entirely right about the puzzle games, adventure games, sports games, etc.

I was thinking (wrongly) about a specific type of game / genre. My perspective was very narrow and I did not make that clear enough.

Perhaps it is due to my disappointment of games/series that I like. An example of Fallout 3, which IMO is worse in most ways than its predecessor (Fallout 2). Yes, we have the better graphics and infinitely better interfaces and usability. That does make a huge diffeence. In the end though, it feels more shallow, less innovative, etc. I'm not saying it wasn't good or wasn't innovative, I thought VATS was an amazing way to turn a turn based game into a FPS. I really loved that change. The story though is unfortunately very similar to Fallout2, the companions are less interesting and less unique (no robo-brains, lame humanoids, no mutants until New Vegas, no Albino Deathclaws, etc. Anyway...tangent!)

Since I am not at all a big fan of puzzle games or casual games or mobile games- my list of non-violent video games is a lot shorter than other people's. So that's where I'd place my argument, in more specific genres I guess. I was certainly wrong with violence as a whole. As for innovation, I can't keep track of all platforms/genres so maybe I am wrong there too.

I also have to thank you quite significantly for admitting your own error in misreading what I wrote. I was totally surprised at the maturity and intelligence of your reply. "On the internet this is happening?!?!" hehe. I once again really did not mean to be callous or crass. It is just very difficult most of the time, and when I posted that I just got off arguing with quite a few game developers who insisted on believing something without evidence, and then teaming up against me when I asked for evidence. I had no side or argument one way or another, but apparently asking people on the internet for evidence to support their beliefs is a really unpopular move to make, hehehe. "How DARE you challenge conventional wisdom by asking for supporting evidence!"

I don't always believe firmly in the stuff I post either. Sometimes it's just theories, sometimes just thoughts that I go with to see what people say. In the end, if the conversant is intelligent, I end up with some very interesting or more truthful thoughts. I always appreciate people using sound reasoning to poke holes in my thoughts Smiley  So thanks again for your response!

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making nonviolence fun for certain "core" gamers who play violent games is hard. making nonviolence in games fun for pretty much everyone else isn't.

FANTASTIC!!

This sums up my perspective I was seeing when writing my post.

A perfect statement to summarize this thread as well.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2015, 04:30:34 PM by RJAG » Logged
gimymblert
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« Reply #221 on: May 11, 2015, 04:27:03 PM »

What core gamer expect is AAA without violence, they want last of us and bioshock without the shooting but still plenty stuff to do, in fact they want heavy rain but good, that's why telltale is taking a rise (on the back of heavy rain innovation), also life is strange or the novelist (let's lump gone home and walking simulator as a related subgenre) ... there is plenty room to perfect the genre
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« Reply #222 on: May 12, 2015, 12:28:15 AM »

Pacman 2 anyone? Its basically proto wonder porject j





save for the last boss, it can be totally played in a non violent way.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #223 on: May 12, 2015, 01:38:02 AM »

Pac Man 2 looks like the definition of a bad game.
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« Reply #224 on: May 12, 2015, 05:56:16 AM »

Yet it is the very best game.
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« Reply #225 on: May 12, 2015, 08:16:27 AM »

The problem with Pac-Man 2 is that it feels nothing like Pac-Man. I mean, it'd be OK if it had an obviously spin-offish name, but something suggesting it's the official sequel? (incidentally the proper sequels would be Super Pac-Man and Pac'n'Pal)

In any case it doesn't matter much, the game encourages you to hit Pac-Man with rocks all the time. Seriously, you aren't going to get very far otherwise.
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« Reply #226 on: May 12, 2015, 08:28:07 AM »

You really dont need to hit pacman directly for most. The first mission can be solved by having pacman yell the crow and drop the milk. The only only needs you to slightshot the ropes and shit. The third only need a cocky pacman and to you to slightshot the disguised ghost (which only serves to break his disguise). The last mission... well taht one blew it by having such a lame boss encounter.

Agreed on the terrible naming.
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« Reply #227 on: May 12, 2015, 01:02:38 PM »

i love that it is called pac man 2. makes it feel like a post modern deconstruction. What is the true pac man 2? Why, it's a story about pacman navigating the maze of LIFE of course.
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« Reply #228 on: May 12, 2015, 01:31:59 PM »

i have always found out that the fourth wall avatar has an adult voice. pac-man 2 always had the feel o a saturday night cartoon, and would have been suited better by having a children crowd voice guiding pacman. You know, like what dora the explorer pretends to be
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« Reply #229 on: May 30, 2015, 06:08:50 AM »

The problem with Pac-Man 2 is that it feels nothing like Pac-Man. I mean, it'd be OK if it had an obviously spin-offish name, but something suggesting it's the official sequel? (incidentally the proper sequels would be Super Pac-Man and Pac'n'Pal)

In any case it doesn't matter much, the game encourages you to hit Pac-Man with rocks all the time. Seriously, you aren't going to get very far otherwise.
I've...never even heard of these games.
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« Reply #230 on: May 30, 2015, 10:39:17 AM »

Yeah, that's the biggest problem with them =/ And unlike gamesl like Ms. Pac-Man and Pac Jr, they aren't just minor tweaks of the original game, but have noticeably different gameplay. But that may be the big reason why they aren't known in the first place.








I wonder what happened to Pal...
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gimymblert
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« Reply #231 on: May 30, 2015, 11:07:47 AM »

the sequel of pac man is mario bros, collecting stuff, avoiding enemy, with gravity added to the mix.
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« Reply #232 on: May 30, 2015, 11:15:41 AM »

This is the reason I find stealth so appealing. It's the antithesis of action games. In other genres, a player's skill is measured by how stylish or how fast or how efficiently they can kill enemies. A skilled player in a stealth game kills no one, ghosting through a level unseen. A higher score comes from killing fewer enemies and hiding more effectively. It's such a 180 from the common game framework: how can I progress without engaging the enemy?

I really wish AI had progressed in the same way graphics have. I think if enemies were smarter, more reactive and adaptive, games could do less with more. Instead of 100s of enemies, facing just a few communicating and intelligent enemies would be rewarding.
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« Reply #233 on: May 30, 2015, 11:33:38 AM »

Ai isn't a solution, the problem is the player, ai is way smarter today, but there is an information bottleneck from the player so it is dumb down. The problem is to define intelligence in the context of game, in the end it's a design and "UI" (I didn't say "GUI") problem.
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« Reply #234 on: May 31, 2015, 06:20:06 PM »

Yeah, that's the biggest problem with them =/ And unlike gamesl like Ms. Pac-Man and Pac Jr, they aren't just minor tweaks of the original game, but have noticeably different gameplay. But that may be the big reason why they aren't known in the first place.








I wonder what happened to Pal...
That is different. Also, Pal should return as a villain..just because.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #235 on: June 07, 2015, 07:08:33 AM »


http://nvgotd.tumblr.com/


https://emshort.wordpress.com/category/conversation-modeling/
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« Reply #236 on: June 07, 2015, 10:28:48 AM »

The only non-violent platformer I have ever enjoyed was Knytt. The controls in that game are so smooth and fine. Besides that, nothing.
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« Reply #237 on: June 07, 2015, 01:11:12 PM »

gonna jump in without reading most of the thread so I can hand out my opinion:

I'd like to see a game with action like Ghost in the Shell; tense, a lot of setup, a few carefully placed shots, and then it's over (or spend 15 minutes figuring out how to take out a tank on your own without heavy weaponry).
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« Reply #238 on: June 08, 2015, 02:37:17 AM »

The only non-violent platformer I have ever enjoyed was Knytt. The controls in that game are so smooth and fine. Besides that, nothing.
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« Reply #239 on: June 08, 2015, 08:29:09 PM »

Never heard of it.
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