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[motorsep]

I have, but its been 15 years give or take. I mostly remember being annoyed that none of the headers had include guards.

There is #pragma once.

EDIT: and guards, for example https://github.com/RobertBeckebans/RBDOOM-3-BFG/blob/master/neo/framework/DeclPDA.h

[Cheesegrater]

Not in the HL1 SDK of the time.

[motorsep]

Another off-topic - I just remembered about another good engine (old, but good): http://www.rtcwcoop.com/

Back to the topic - so am I out of luck finding C++ AI programmer here ?

[umen]

Also you can use Cube or Cube2 open source engines they have great license

[Dacke]

But you can freely link to non-GPL code from GPL code, without the non-GPL-code having to be relicensed.

Not freely. There is an exception in the license for linking to system libraries, but if the non-GPL code you are linking does not meet that definition you can't use it.

Yeah, whoops, sorry. You can freely link to most other free libraries*, without them having to be relicensed to GPL. I only ever use free libraries, so my brain had accidentally shortened the rule. If an program is GPL you should be able to run it without relying on non-free code (besides OS stuff). It really isn't that difficult.

* that are GPL compatible (i.e. pretty much all common free licenses except for a few other copy left licenses (like AGPL 1.0))

[motorsep]

Also you can use Cube or Cube2 open source engines they have great license

Not a great engine from what I heard. Has even less docs and example than Doom 3. Lacking features-rich game code. Pretty limiting when it comes to level design.

[motorsep]

So, am I doom'ed ? 

[Layl]

Seems so, modern engines tend to be nicer to work with so they attract all the programmers.

[motorsep]

Seems so, modern engines tend to be nicer to work with so they attract all the programmers.

C++ is C++, what difference does it make o.O

[Layl]

C++ is C++, what difference does it make o.O

APIs make a huge difference, there's a good reason why people tend to use one library over another even though it's the same language. Next to that, there's also the support community and the features supported by the engine. Your average UE4 entity is going to look vastly different from a Source entity or a Doom 3 entity.

[motorsep]

APIs make a huge difference, there's a good reason why people tend to use one library over another even though it's the same language. Next to that, there's also the support community and the features supported by the engine. Your average UE4 entity is going to look vastly different from a Source entity or a Doom 3 entity.

Doom 3 already has pathfinding and navigation fully functional. There is several whitepapers describing what's under the hood and how it works. There is maybe a minor work needed to expand navigation for AI to use lifts, ladders, etc.

There is a good change C++ part wouldn't need to be touched at all. The entire job would be done using C++ like scripting (rewriting Doom 3 base AI scripts from scratch, or rather writing new implementation since original script code said to be written by artists and thus horrible).

Also, if a programmer is skilled, I doubt said programmer will need support from community. Doom 3 assets are all human readable and there is a lot of info on modding Doom 3 (plus, I can definitely help filling the gaps).

I miss good ol' times when programmers enjoyed the challenge of modding hell out of Quakes and Doom 3 :/

[Layl]

Also, if a programmer is skilled, I doubt said programmer will need support from community.

A skilled programmer wouldn't NEED help, but it's sure as hell a lot easier to be able to ask questions than having to dig into source code yourself.

It to me just seems like programmers have moved on, rather wanting to spend less effort in another engine for the same result.

[Cheesegrater]

Most hobbyists have moved on. But even though working on old tech isn't any fun, if you can pay a competitive wage I'm sure you could find someone who would learn whatever you want.

[motorsep]

For a moment I thought this is an indie game dev resource :/

What happened with aspiring programmers ? Which programmer do you think has more value, the one that only knows how to use middleware and use behavior trees, or the one who knows how to do all the dirty work, lower level programming + modern tools ? I bet the latter. New engines, especially Unity, doesn't offer this kind of experience. Old tech does, and that's where most of the today's bright minds came from - from modding old tech.

Anyhow, if I had resources to offer competitive pay, I wouldn't be here, would I ?

That doesn't say I am asking for the work to be done for free. I am willing to pay (if I can afford it).

[Layl]

For a moment I thought this is an indie game dev resource :/

What happened with aspiring programmers ? Which programmer do you think has more value, the one that only knows how to use middleware and use behavior trees, or the one who knows how to do all the dirty work, lower level programming + modern tools ? I bet the latter. New engines, especially Unity, doesn't offer this kind of experience. Old tech does, and that's where most of the today's bright minds came from - from modding old tech.

There's no value in crippling yourself for no good reason. Just because someone works with Unity or UE4 doesn't mean they don't know how to do the lower level dirty work.

Old tech isn't somehow better because it's old, it's just old.

[motorsep]

Old tech isn't somehow better because it's old, it's just old.

Ok Layl, I get it - you don't care for "old" tech, just because it's not trendy and it makes you actually work a bit more for the money. I pretty positive it's not the case why I can't find AI programmer for the project.

[J-Snake]

You might get in contact with Tom (despite his sympathy for the Unity engine). May be it helps. He is a nice guy specializing in A.I. and would be glad to see someone utilizing his work. He was here around some time ago. Here is his youtube page, take a look around and see it is something for you.

https://www.youtube.com/user/coAdjointTom/videos

some fps example:

[motorsep]

Thanks J-Snake, e-mailed him.

[diegzumillo]

Motorsep from Darkmod? Diego here
Yeah, D3 engine is not exactly friendly. Just to give you an idea, my programming skills are decent enough to prototype a stealth game in Unity, but when it comes to D3 engine I can't even get an animated model working on that damned thing. It's poorly documented and not popular enough to have people mapping out its inner workings.

[motorsep]

Motorsep from Darkmod? Diego here
Yeah, D3 engine is not exactly friendly. Just to give you an idea, my programming skills are decent enough to prototype a stealth game in Unity, but when it comes to D3 engine I can't even get an animated model working on that damned thing. It's poorly documented and not popular enough to have people mapping out its inner workings.

Yep yep, it's me

I'd argue that D3 is friendly enough. Lack of documentation - true. D3 engine isn't Unity. It's not universal per se. Unity was designed to be a jack of all trades. D3 is FPS engine. And it shines at it. It still has great potential, even today. I find it funny when people (indies) keep swearing by Unity, but there aren't whole a lot of decent games are out power by it. Performance issues, poorly designed code, etc. etc. That's not to say using D3 engine will magically produce brilliant game. However, using D3 engine (and by D3 I am referring to my Storm Engine 2) you wouldn't need to worry about network performance, collisions, gameplay, threading, input, etc. It's been designed by iD Software and tested through years. I am certain that if one decides to make a physics based puzzle, or a card game or MMO, or etc. using the engine, there will be issues as it wasn't designed with that in mind.

I am sure you've heard of Blender > UE4 issues, so don't feel bad about not being able to get your model working After all it's not the engine's fault but either exporter or 3D app's.

The code is clean, commented, scripts are commented and pretty much self-explanatory. I am not a programmer, and not only I was able to get around digging and understanding engine's code (gameplay mostly), but also creating replacement for Flash UI without any docs and comments in the code. If someone like a challenge, has time and interest, and willing to get dirty, so to speak, there is no excuse to not crack down on the engine's inner workings. Especially that they wouldn't have to start from absolute zero.

I understand why people choose Unity - you don't need to get your hands dirty to get prototype up and running; you get useful piece into your portfolio, and there are jobs where you can transfer your experience directly. However, at the end of the day C++ programmer who worked with engine's guts and built (or helped building) a [commercial] game using idTech 4 will be more valuable than an indie who only worked with Unity (and thus will be paid much higher salary and have a better chance getting into a dream company, if there are any left).

Btw, it took me only a few days to figure out Unity's pipeline. As an analogy, I recall our professor in the university told us that it would only take under a year to turn an engineer into anyone else (except maybe a doctor), but it will take 5+ years to turn anyone else into an engineer. Same goes for these modern engines.

Anyhow, enough rambling about D3 engine being old and stuff. It's a problem with mindset nowadays, not the age of the engines.