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[piirakka]

I'm sure everyone here is familiar with the idea that you're not a real game developer until you've made a game.

I've been doing game development for a few years, I'm a competent programmer and a decent artist, and I've made a few trivially small games in the past but I haven't yet been able to finish a proper game of my own. Because of that I feel like I have almost no credibility as an indie developer. In my interactions with other developers I've been excluded, ignored, talked down to, or had my point of view dismissed enough times to have this feeling reinforced. It seems like without a game to my name, I'm nobody.

As a result, over the last year or two I've stopped participating in the indie community. No more conferences, game jams, parties, or hanging out in bars. I used to think that I could start participating again once I released a game, but I don't know if I can anymore. It just sucks to feel like I can't talk about my game design struggles with other developers or even ask them questions because I'll be perceived as an annoying wannabe. It makes game development a sad and lonely experience.

To some extent I can understand the stigma, since indie developers have to eat, and releasing games is the only way to get paid. But this kind of gatekeeping seems at odds with the inclusive and welcoming image that the indie community has.

Does anyone else struggle with this? What are your experiences with participating in the indie community before you've finished a game? Do things get better once you've shipped? How do you deal with it?

[Melon Mason]

It makes game development a sad and lonely experience.

For a lot of people it is. Most of the folks I know who make a living from it are pretty much constantly working.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

I've been doing game development for a few years, I'm a competent programmer and a decent artist, and I've made a few trivially small games in the past but I haven't yet been able to finish a proper game of my ownIn my interactions with other developers I've been excluded, ignored, talked down to, or had my point of view dismissed enough times to have this feeling reinforced. It seems like without a game to my name, I'm nobody.

Lot of possibilites here, the developers you've interacted with a jerks ,    you're maybe not a competant programmer nor a decent artist. In several years, i can't understand how you can't release a single game, even a little game or a prototype can be made in no time. Maybe you suck at Irl relationship and you're not an interesting person.
In some part i seems you have no faith in what you're doing. Is game development your dream ? your path?


Indie community somewhat evolved into a less welcoming community as it is getting more and more easier to get into this sector. more people,more wannabe, more competition, more toxicity.

Unless you're extremely talented, lucky , good in social interaction, a game development life is just sad and lonely.

My game development life is happy because i am a Genius.

[Cobralad]

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I was typing the same thing

I havent released any proper game, largely because im not a programmer and was involved in many trainwreck endevaors. Its really common among artists, especially pixel artists.
Although its hard to give advice to you since you are a manbaby. Maybe you are a horrible human being, maybe they are jerks. I certainly saw some gamedev people who got tester job at big company and have an unpleasant patronising tone in everything they speak.

[oahda]

I've gotten this even from internet-savvy non-dev acquaintances. But those were jerks and bigots in many aspects of life. Might have gotten it a few times from cranky IRC devs, but in general I think most people are pretty cool. Try talking to more local people too (there are some nice people I've found through specifically Swedish and Norwegian dev communities, for example) and not just the super-anonymous forum or IRC people.

I found it really difficult to get into the TIGS community and at times I still feel paranoid as to whether anybody really does recognise me or like me in the least, but I don't know if that is because I persisted and got to know people better or because the people and the community actually changed over time (I think it's a combination of both), and I'm just generally paranoid like that.

At least now, I feel pretty safe on TIGS and I have only finished two small mobile games and some Ludum Dare jam games (and probably nobody here knows about any of those games or even other games that I did take pretty far at some point without finishing, so I probably look like someone who has never finished a game to most people anyway). It has probably had more to do with me just participating in all sorts of general discussions on here and not just talking about my games (I try to keep that within my devlogs unless I have a question related to the specifics of a game or if an example or anecdote from one is relevant to a discussion) and getting to know people a little better that way.

People not knowing your name from other threads of course doesn't warrant being a jerk towards you elsewhere, tho, but I really have to say that I generally do not see that kind of behaviour on here. In the worst case scenario your devlog goes by ignored, but people won't come in there and bash you.

[J-Snake]

No more conferences, game jams, parties, or hanging out in bars.

Is that what you need to make games? It's all fluff. Search some real values.

btw, Kojima is probably more lonely than you are (despite being surrounded by his team).

[Ark]

May be your expectations are too high. If you are game developer it doesn't mean that other game developers will be in love with you (regardless of your project's state). I had a similar shock as an artist years ago... But on the other hand I have a lot of good memories being a young guitarist in my hometown... Best community ever... So I think it's mostly about luck .  

[Chris MacAdam]

I am an indie and have yet to finish a game. I spent alot of time making prototypes, and making half baked games that I could push aside when I got the next 'cool' idea. But not really finishing anything and getting it into the hands of players.
I am determined to actually finish something now that I have more experience though.
I feel the stigma a bit as you said. I have never been talked down to or looked down on because of it. ( at least not to my knowledge. ) But I do feel a bit out of the loop in the community at times.

It sounds like you were surrounding yourself with the wrong people though honestly. I wouldn't want to hang out/talk to anyone that would talk down to you or anything like that because you haven't finished a game. They are probably an elitist douche anyways 
People here seem generally helpful, anytime I reached out for feedback or anything I normally get some replies. It might be different in person though..

[woodsmoke]

You don't.

Just go ahead and make your games.

[skaz]

I've never finished anything. But I make games. I've just yet to finish a game :p I don't know what I am, and I don't care, I don't need a label. I just do what I like and find pleasure in it. Maybe you think to much. Or you hang out with jerks.

[Superb Joe]

damn, it's really fucked up and wrong that people take you more seriously the more demonstrable experience and success you have. i can't think of a single other professional field where this is the case. big hugs for you my friend.

[piirakka]

Most of the developers I've met aren't jerks. It's more of a general attitude. There was one developer I knew who acted like any opinion or theory I developed while learning how to make games was invalidated by the fact that I hadn't released one. Most people aren't so forthright about it, but I still get the sense that the sentiment is there.

Thanks for the responses so far, especially Prinsessa and Chris MacAdam. It's good to hear others' thoughts on this.

[Chris MacAdam]

damn, it's really fucked up and wrong that people take you more seriously the more demonstrable experience and success you have. i can't think of a single other professional field where this is the case. big hugs for you my friend.

I have no problem with someone not being taken as seriously if they don't have anything to show. But that doesn't mean that you should write them off as dumb or not knowing about a subject because they have less experience than someone else. Someone who knows more than someone else should instead help the person with less knowledge and share experiences and maybe both parties could learn something.

[Canned Turkey]

damn, it's really fucked up and wrong that people take you more seriously the more demonstrable experience and success you have. i can't think of a single other professional field where this is the case. big hugs for you my friend.

Joe you never fail to make me laugh.

[Superb Joe]

damn, it's really fucked up and wrong that people take you more seriously the more demonstrable experience and success you have. i can't think of a single other professional field where this is the case. big hugs for you my friend.

I have no problem with someone not being taken as seriously if they don't have anything to show. But that doesn't mean that you should write them off as dumb or not knowing about a subject because they have less experience than someone else. Someone who knows more than someone else should instead help the person with less knowledge and share experiences and maybe both parties could learn something.

yeah or maybe they can use their earned position of power to stomp on him like a bug until he releases a game

[J-Snake]

A lot of people don't realize that financial success is neither necessary nor sufficient to be competent in topics of interest.
For example I had to explain to a microsoft mvp why his game loop was technically flawed before he started listening.

[Cobralad]

you should have punched him in the gut to test his Qigong

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

A lot of people don't realize that financial success is neither necessary nor sufficient to be competent in topics of interest.

The problem is when you've dealt with many incompetent people, you start looking at details like past experience or financial success to avoid the mental pain dealing with bullshitness. 

OP should post his portfolio or something since he said he is

a competent programmer and a decent artist

.

[J-Snake]

you should have punched him in the gut to test his Qigong

Nah. I don't punch programmers, it's like beating women.

A lot of people don't realize that financial success is neither necessary nor sufficient to be competent in topics of interest.

The problem is when you've dealt with many incompetent people, you start looking at details like past experience or financial success to avoid the mental pain dealing with bullshitness.

I am dealing with many incompetent people, not only on this forum. Filtering information is important in daily life but once I read something my analytical capabilities are not blinded by where someone is coming from.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

Filtering information is important in daily life but once I read something my analytical capabilities are not blinded by where someone is coming from.

Yep , filtering information is important but there are circumstances where you have no information at all and you're either forced to listen and gamble your time  or ignore the person and save your time.
for reading it's a bit different. It's all up to your decision here.