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[JWK5]

The problem is "indie" has become a blanket term (in the context of game development). When I first started messing around with game making I saw that "indie" was primarily used in reference to free games and hobby projects. OHRRPGCE, Verge, Game Maker, RPG Maker,  Multimedia Fusion, etc. games were the lion's share of what was circulating around. Unfinished projects was common and to be a part of the scene but not have completed a game was understandable, much like the modding scene most of it seemed to be a labor of love rather than a product to sell (not to say games can't be both).

Now that "indie" games have gained mainstream popularity and have become attractive to publishers and potentially lucrative to small teams or individuals, "indie" has a different meaning, a more market-oriented one. This causes certain expectations to be held (i.e. consumer expectations rather than just fan/community/supporter expectations) so to say you are an indie game maker many people are going to assume you must be operating beyond a hobby level and as such you are obligated to produce.

I don't think this shift has snuffed out the spirit of the indie game making scene, I think it has just caused its intentions to branch out in different directions. It's not all that different than what is currently happening with the modding scene, with some treating mods as a hobby and a labor of love and others seeing an opportunity to make money doing what they enjoy (and then of course there is that nasty third branch home to the cash cow wranglers).

Anyways, the stigma is just the growing pains of a rapidly expanding community, eventually the hobby makers will carve their niche again and a better distinction of intention and expectation will be recognized.

[cynicalsandel]

If you've never finished a song, would you call yourself a songwriter?

If you only know 3 chords on guitar, would you call yourself a guitarist or a musician?

I don't call myself a game developer, because while I have made 2 "games", I am not proud of them and almost no one knows of their existence. I do however, call myself a pixel artist because while my output is not very high, nor is the quality the greatest, I still do create something I perceive as "finished."

A game developer makes games. Don't get me wrong, I am glad people are attempting to make games if it's their passion. I would never bully or make fun of someone for not finishing a game. I fully understand things can get in the way, as I know first hand from mental illness. However, if you want to make games just make one. It can be 5 minutes long.

I don't think this has anything to do with indie going mainstream or any real stigma. I have only been questioned on my game making abilities once on this forum. And it only happened because some of my views are outside the norm. This is your insecurity. You are assuming people will hold it against you. Most people just don't care. I might as well just be rude since I'm already this far, but poster, I'm gonna guess that people weren't talking down to you, ignoring you, or were excluded because you haven't finished a game. Your post came across as some dude whining and being insecure about their own abilities. I would purposefully disassociate from you if this post is in any way representative of your everyday personality.

[JWK5]

I would purposefully disassociate from you if this post is in any way representative of your everyday personality.

Given the lack of empathy you'd be doing him (her?) a favor.

[starsrift]

You could always finish a game.

/ I need to finish one, been too long since my last one

[cynicalsandel]

I would purposefully disassociate from you if this post is in any way representative of your everyday personality.

Given the lack of empathy you'd be doing him (her?) a favor.

I will be the first to admit I'm not the easiest to get along with, and I definitely can't empathize with this particular situation.

I don't know them. I've never met them. The only two posts the member has on this board are in this topic. I can't look up their other posts (to possibly see their opinions) because they don't exist. They have no links to their work in either their profile or signature. How am I supposed to empathize with this person's situation in relation to their capabilities when they give me nothing to go on?

This topic was posted without said person ever posting any of their opinions on design or games on the forums. Nobody on here has dismissed them, because they never even tried. There are tons of topic in the design sub-forum by newish or inexperienced (and experienced) members that people discuss without much negativity.

I guess I'll recuse myself because I stated my opinion, if someone wants to address anything other than my possibly rude tone I'd be glad to elaborate.

[AlexanderOcias]

It's pretty rough, there's no satisfactory benchmark you can reach either.

Once you have shipped a game, the questions become "yeah but what have you shipped that's 'good'"
Once you have shipped a game that is 'good', the questions become "yeah but what have you shipped that people liked"
Once you have shipped a game that people liked, the questions become "yeah but what have you shipped that's well known"
Once you have shipped a game that's well known, the questions become "yeah but what have you shipped that's popular recently"

There are just many people out there who enjoy delegitimising others.

Trying to find validation from other developers is a poisonous path. Focus on finding joy in your work and in your own little accomplishments, on helping others not suffer the same stigma and on the community of the supporters you already have.

[JWK5]

How am I supposed to empathize with this person's situation in relation to their capabilities when they give me nothing to go on?

It just sucks to feel like I can't talk about my game design struggles with other developers or even ask them questions because I'll be perceived as an annoying wannabe. It makes game development a sad and lonely experience.

You had plenty to go on. Dismissing and alienating someone who feels dismissed and alienated is not going to produce a positive outcome. However, had you just clipped your post to the following you'd primarily have given fairly sound advice in a fairly respectful manner:

A game developer makes games. Don't get me wrong, I am glad people are attempting to make games if it's their passion. I would never bully or make fun of someone for not finishing a game. I fully understand things can get in the way, as I know first hand from mental illness. However, if you want to make games just make one. It can be 5 minutes long.

For the record, I don't think you're an asshole or anything so please don't misunderstand what I am getting at here. I am just saying piirakka is going through a wave of self doubt that many of us go through from time to time. Making games can be pretty tough. Cut him some slack and point him in the right direction.

[starsrift]

damn, it's really fucked up and wrong that people take you more seriously the more demonstrable experience and success you have. i can't think of a single other professional field where this is the case. big hugs for you my friend.

yeah or maybe they can use their earned position of power to stomp on him like a bug until he releases a game

LMAO

though I suppose the second part of this doesn't make as much sense to new tiggers... to explain - Joe was banned for being abusive until he made a game, for a long time. he still hasn't made the game AFAIK, even though he was welcomed back...

[cynicalsandel]

You had plenty to go on. Dismissing and alienating someone who feels dismissed and alienated is not going to produce a positive outcome. However, had you just clipped your post to the following you'd primarily have given fairly sound advice in a fairly respectful manner:

I feel like I addressed this again slightly in my second post, but they have never posted any design discussions here. I've got no evidence to work with other than their word. They never gave any examples of how they were excluded, dismissed, etc. Unless they prove otherwise, my gut tells me this is mostly insecurity said person has to deal with. And even if there were some people as rude as me, there could be plenty of other reasons besides their lack of output. Game jams especially seems strange because, from my experience, nobody cares what you've made, they care about what you are making right now. That's what a game jam is all about.

Plus, there is always the sort of clique-ish nature of some indie groups. It's a separate topic, but some people might not have been dismissing them, but rather wanted to use their time with different people. Nobody owes them their time to talk about game design.

Additionally, there is the added layer of maybe they weren't dismissive of their opinions because they haven't finished a game, but rather because they hold conflicting tastes in games. I don't give a crap about combat mechanics. If someone came up to me at a jam and wanted to talk about combat design I would shrug and say "Who cares?"

For the record, I don't think you're an asshole or anything so please don't misunderstand what I am getting at here. I am just saying piirakka is going through a wave of self doubt that many of us go through from time to time. Making games can be pretty tough. Cut him some slack and point him in the right direction.

I wouldn't hold it against you if you thought I was an asshole. I'm honestly just responding to this the way I would want people to respond if it were me. I toned it down quite a bit and it still ended up that way.

[FrankieSmileShow]

I've had like at least 50-60 "serious" game projects so far and theres only 3 of em I would call "finished", not counting other people's projects that I just made some art for.
Finishing games can be tedious, and starting a new one is exciting, its not hard to see why this is a problem for so many of us. Especially when you are making games as a hobby: your excitement and motivation is basically the only factor, so as soon as it wanes, your project is in serious jeopardy.

As for the stigma itself, yeah. I hear people question others' CREDENTIALS, or accuse people of "never having made anything" behind their backs all the time, as a reason for dismissing their advice, ideas or even words of encouragement.
Sometimes its done earnestly, sometimes its done kind of facetiously/ironically, like a joke, and sometimes the line between the two is a bit blurry. Kind of like calling games "cave story ripoffs" a few years ago. I used to do that a lot myself back in the day, but the joke got kind of old.

A lot of this is just some dumb ol social games. Often really a consequence of having been on the receiving end of that very same stigma before. Feeling judged because you don't have dat indie credibility yet, then once you feel like you finally got a little bit, you want to finally take advantage of it. By putting in question another developer's credibility, you are implying that YOU have cred of your own, right? Kind of comes from that same insecurity. Most people who feel comfortable with their own "cred" or "status" don't do any of that shit I'm sure.
People are probably more likely to question credentials of people who sound arrogant, though. That's definitely a factor.

That said, of course people are always going to take others more seriously if they've seen their work. That's not going to go away, I dont think anyone expects that. It makes sense, people have a lot of other folks to interact with, so judgement happens quickly.

There are more ways to show your work than with completed games though. You could show prototypes, art, etc.

If you find yourself unable to finish anything at all, maybe you have a problem with scope on your projects?
Try thinking of your projects as smaller and simpler. Maybe force your game ideas into a much smaller mold, and force yourself to keep the size and scope consistent throughout. Give yourself a limited time to do it, like one month. You will feel a lot more confident about all this once you finish a first game. Its not going to fix everything, but its going to be a start.

Now if you've had this problem for that long, I guess this is pretty obvious advice, might sound a bit patronizing, but I guess sometimes its still what you need to hear. I kind of feel like I need to hear it myself, every now and then.

[s0]

i think the stigma is more against "idea guys" & other wannabes. indie gamedev has a LOT of those and as a result, many experienced devs become jaded. sometimes it ends up hitting the wrong people unfortunately.

[st33d]

Finishing is pretty important though. It completely flips your attitude to what you've done. You either learn some humility from it or succeed on your first shot and become a rampant hubris filled asshole.

Expressing your virginity in anything will always give some dickheads a reason to try to invalidate you. Because they were looking for that anyway.

Make something really really small and just finish it. It'll be good for your health and you can stop worrying about it.

[Mittens]

"How do you deal with the stigma against indies who haven't finished a game?"

Don't be one of those indies

[Carrion]

There are a lot of people who freelance art, music, and programming that I'd consider "indie developers" despite the fact they don't have any finished personal projects.

Idea guys arent so bad as long as their ideas dont involve impossible or overly ambitious tasks. Kojima started out as an idea guy and got hired by dum ol Konami back when games were even more technical than they are now.

[jamesprimate]

 

[s0]

also theres a difference between an idea guy and a dev who has actually done substantial work on a game but isnt finished yet. im not aware of any stigma against the 2nd category. the devlog section on tig has lots of hype and encouragement for people making their first "real" game.

Idea guys arent so bad as long as their ideas dont involve impossible or overly ambitious tasks. Kojima started out as an idea guy and got hired by dum ol Konami back when games were even more technical than they are now.

ya but for every kojima there are 102933823 people who think writing a "design doc" for a minecraft zombie kinect mmo makes them expert game devs and end up never making anything.

[Schrompf]

Or maybe...

How do you deal with the stigma against indies who haven't finished a game?

... by finishing a game.

[VDZ]

I would purposefully disassociate from you if this post is in any way representative of your everyday personality.

Given the lack of empathy you'd be doing him (her?) a favor.

Yeah, because why listen to someone who gives their honest opinion when you can instead listen to people who just say what you want to hear?