next »

[Capntastic]

If there is a market for them they need to really want it and nurture it and deal with the surrounding annoyance. They won't.

I think there's something to be said for finding a market and nurturing it.  This doesn't have to mean changing their ideals at all, but maybe being more proactive in making themselves visible to people who would want to give them money for their stuff.

Like, I'm all for using interactive constructs/games/whatever as a highly expressive medium.  But none of the games ToT has put out really interest me personally.  It's like the Mona Lisa.  I can appreciate the talent behind it, but I'm not gonna go and buy a print of it.  They needed to be more clear about making the Mona Lisa and trying to find people who wanted the Mona Lisa, and keeping those people happy.

[gimymblert]

I always thought the pretentiousness of Tale of tales was not real and more a by product of their complete outsiderness status, they literally had zero knowledge of games, game industry and game culture, that's why their game came out as so weird and why they cut so wildly the gameplay convention out, giving strength to insider who fast followed on their interpretation of the media. A game like gone home is not as imaginative and still in typical plot/tropes/presentation set in the culture of gamer (the horror pretense, the ninety nostalgia, the level design phylosophy, the heavy stealing of tropes from other media genre, etc ...). This status of inside allow those people (with also good connection within the industry and gamer culture's circle) to amplify and push the boundary of game as culture instead of falling completly outside of it).

Tale of tales trying to make a gamer game is like japanese company trying to appeal to western taste, they just don't get it (see the reference they used such the readable 3 acts structures). They are tonally off.

[s0]

journey, gone home, stanley parable and dear esther sold very well tho. so there is some kind of market there.

- Their games simply weren't good enough in conventional terms. I like them a lot and they are always interesting, but often flawed technically and design-wise. Sunset actually has a pretty low review rating on Steam for a fan-favorite.

its also probably that their aesthetic is pretty polarizing compared to the games mentioned above (its the main reason why i dont like their stuff for instance). i don't think this is just a "gamer culture" thing either.

but yes lack of proper infrastructure for this sort of work is probably the biggest issue. the "critical acclaim as its own 'alternative' market" thing that exists in e.g. music and movies isn't as strong in videogames. in jazz music during its heyday, a complete weirdo like sun ra could have a 30 year career and make a decent living. the sun ra of videogames (whoever that is) wouldn't even make it 5 years.

[s0]

Tale of tales trying to make a gamer game is like japanese company trying to appeal to western taste, they just don't get it (see the reference they used such the readable 3 acts structures). They are tonally off.

sometimes it can result in great work tho. miles davis tried to make a commercial funk album in 1972 and made "on the corner". the album was anything but mainstream funk and was a total commercial failure but is considered a landmark album today.

[TeeGee]

Yeah I guess I am ignorant about prognosticating something as complex as the "indie art game market" which is why I qualified it with a big "might" and went on to explain my reasoning and how even lowered prices isn't a silver bullet.  If you want to couch my post as an "argument" to springboard off of, that's fine, but maybe don't point to my post and say "people like this don't know what the fuck they're talking about" unless you're going to actually respond to what I said directly?

I guess I did use your post as a springboard, so sorry for that. But I also didn't mean "knows very little about selling games" as an insult or anything, as I assume most people on this board are not living off selling games -- not having much business experience is absolutely to be expected.

I guess a more diplomatic way would be to say that it's a very common misconception that comes from looking at things from a consumer point of view.

[Capntastic]

I guess a more diplomatic way would be to say that it's a very common misconception that comes from looking at things from a consumer point of view.

I see nothing wrong with considering the Consumer's Point of View when the problem is not enough consumers buying their product.  But I'm just hassling you because I intentionally made my original post as devoid of solid conclusions as possible.  I choose my language carefully.

I'm curious though.  If you think that lowering prices would result in less income for ToT, and we know that they are failing at their current price point, do you think that they should raise their prices?

[gimymblert]

It's not just a gamer stuff as they haven't a very "mainstream" happy aesthetics too, but in the context of video game they didn't have this affinity other people have, even the most outsider aesthetics of the other game still retain a kind of certain cultural flair that overlap the different culture from which game culture overlap too, journey is seen as artistic but it's a very specific kind of animated like style of art, it comes from a culture of illustration born of animation, so did most others. Tale of tales overlap more with arthouse things and contemporary art in feeling and contents, which has very little overlap with culture associated or overlapping with games. As such they can't extend it in a meaningful way to people who consume game, nor they can reach people outside game consumption as they reapprpriate the code of game to their own purpose, the whole move character through space is the main repellant for "outsider" of game consumtion, it demand a certain kind of basics literacy in reading an interactive 3D space than most people who don't play game don't have.

[Capntastic]

it demand a certain kind of basics literacy in reading an interactive 3D space than most people who don't play game don't have.

As an aside, this is a skill that is often taken 100% for granted.

Anecdote:  A friend's mom, who loves puzzle games and time management games, and excels at them in ways that boggle my mind, had to be coached through the first level of Portal for about an hour because the idea of controlling so many things (viewing, aiming) with the mouse and keyboard simultaneously, alongside remembering where objects not in her sight were, along with actually performing the actions required to progress (what most people would call "playing the game"), was completely beyond her experience.  And that is a Valve game, with an excessive amount of friends and family testing to smooth the learning curve out as much as possible.

[s0]

It's not just a gamer stuff as they haven't a very "mainstream" happy aesthetics too, but in the context of video game they didn't have this affinity other people have, even the most outsider aesthetics of the other game still retain a kind of certain cultural flair that overlap the different culture from which game culture overlap too, journey is seen as artistic but it's a very specific kind of animated like style of art, it comes from a culture of illustration born of animation, so did most others. Tale of tales overlap more with arthouse things and contemporary art in feeling and contents, which has very little overlap with culture associated or overlapping with games. As such they can't extend it in a meaningful way to people who consume game, nor they can reach people outside game consumption as they reapprpriate the code of game to their own purpose, the whole move character through space is the main repellant for "outsider" of game consumtion, it demand a certain kind of basics literacy in reading an interactive 3D space than most people who don't play game don't have.

idk about that. i'm a "gamer" and i have a reasonable insight into contemporary art but ToT don't bring these 2 things together in a way i can relate to.

i mean im not saying i could do better lol. ive been thinking a lot about how i could merge my interest in (and involvement with) underground music with my interest in games but it's hard to find a meaningful synthesis that doesnt come off as babbys first "art project" (so far the closest a game has come to this would be either space funeral or rez btw). so ive been sticking to mainly standard "gamey" aesthetics and trying to sneak in some of that stuff through the backdoor.

[jamesprimate]

in jazz music during its heyday, a complete weirdo like sun ra could have a 30 year career and make a decent living. the sun ra of videogames (whoever that is) wouldn't even make it 5 years.

ha i love this quote. i think the issue here is just a matter of scale and overhead though: with Sunset, ToT gambled on a much higher production value to appeal to "mainstream", and it just didnt wind up paying off for any number of reasons. To follow your analogy: Costumes or not, Sun Ra Arkestra could just roll into a venue and play some tunes, collect $$$s at the end of the night, and overtime build that into a larger thing. Its low-risk and sustainable. But if he had to gamble a large sum and years of work into some larger scale project with no safety net, the same fate would likely await.

ToT had a long, influential track record within a certain budget and scope. They WERE that sun ra figure to a certain degree. I personally dont think their swing at a more ambitious project was a mistake. It was a risk, but art doesnt exist without risk. People say "the industry needs more developers taking risks!" You cant praise them for taking risks when it succeeds and then tisk tisk their efforts when it doesnt.

I congratulate their efforts and hope they find a way to continue making art!

[s0]

I congratulate their efforts and hope they find a way to continue making art!

so do i but it's still interesting to talk about possible structural problems w/ the videogame market that may have contributed to their commercial failure.

Costumes or not, Sun Ra Arkestra could just roll into a venue and play some tunes, collect $$$s at the end of the night, and overtime build that into a larger thing. Its low-risk and sustainable. But if he had to gamble a large sum and years of work into some larger scale project with no safety net, the same fate would likely await.

that is true yes. music in general is cheaper to make than games.

[gimymblert]

@silber
I mean in general sense, I'm a gamer I don't relate to mario galaxy, call of duty and journey ... I still "get" their aesthetics

BTW Journey is overrated, it's JUST endless forest with a story progression tale of tales did it before

it demand a certain kind of basics literacy in reading an interactive 3D space than most people who don't play game don't have.

As an aside, this is a skill that is often taken 100% for granted.

Anecdote:  A friend's mom, who loves puzzle games and time management games, and excels at them in ways that boggle my mind, had to be coached through the first level of Portal for about an hour because the idea of controlling so many things (viewing, aiming) with the mouse and keyboard simultaneously, alongside remembering where objects not in her sight were, along with actually performing the actions required to progress (what most people would call "playing the game"), was completely beyond her experience.  And that is a Valve game, with an excessive amount of friends and family testing to smooth the learning curve out as much as possible.

SO much this, My current game is so impacted by this that it hurt my internal gamer pride to let go some convention ...

[TeeGee]

I'm curious though.  If you think that lowering prices would result in less income for ToT, and we know that they are failing at their current price point, do you think that they should raise their prices?

Nah, I think they've set their price more or less right and raising it could cause a negative backlash (if Steam would even allow it). Mostly, I think the price is a marginal factor here. If you hear voices saying that "this game should cost less for what it gives", then your problem is the game's quality, not its price.

[Capntastic]

It seems entirely arbitrary to assert that the price is exactly where it should be. I'm perfectly capable of seeing immense value in a product but still think it to be overcosted.

I think Gone Home is an amazing work, and while many people may be fine spending $20 on it, there's going to be a definite point where lowering the price is going to get you a higher net profit.  We're literally talking about art, where "adding" to it isn't some fungible increase in value.  The price is the factor that can most readily be changed.  That's what I'm discussing.

[MeshGearFox]

Tale of Tales made bad games and were pretty much the embodiment of pretentious internet artiste mindset. This whole "nobody gets our art so we're calling it quits" thing is just a standard continuation of that.

[gimymblert]

MeshGearfox made bad comments and is pretty much the embodiement of pretentious internet gamer. This whole passing of their judgement as laws is just a standard continuation of that.

[MeshGearFox]

MeshGearfox made bad comments and is pretty much the embodiement of pretentious internet gamer. This whole passing of their judgement as laws is just a standard continuation of that.

[gimymblert]

MeshGearfox made bad comments and is pretty much the embodiement of pretentious internet gamer. This whole passing of their judgement as laws is just a standard continuation of that.

[MeshGearFox]

im sorry i wasn't aware this was a my little pony OC thread

[Alevice]

The few games I got to play by them (Endless forest, the Path, Fatale - this made me realize I never bought Bientôt l'été, when I was pretty conveninced that I did) I always got a satisfying experience. Im not sure what people say about their aesthetic, I personally love how they all look. How they interact is a different story.

Im going to make a confession that after all these years, I still keep confusing telltale and tale of tales because their similar names.

Personally, while not a super avid fan subscribing to their blogs and whatever, I never knew about Sunset at all. RPS has done a great job at covering a far share of art games, and I dont recall them making enough coverage for it (they probably did cover it, but maybe I missed it). Sad, because I really liked the trailer.

Im purchasing what I missed from their catalog as we speak.