next »

[Armageddon]

Mkay.

http://killscreendaily.com/articles/cuphead-fleish-cherry-and-influence-and-impact-classic-animation/

[gimymblert]

!!!!!!!! HOLD ON !!!!!!!

You and your clickbait thread!!  
You are the one doing it

You must be a game journalist because actually I don't see much ethics here  

Exploring the historical root of animation and tropes created in a very racist era, and reused in modern era in the midst of racist uptake, is not the same as calling the game racist (though the representation is). IT DOESN'T EVEN REFERENCE RACISM IN THE INTRODUCTION TEXT! It use the word racism only two times in the video to refer to historical period. It's essentially comparative and NO attack is made, they just put things in context.

Y U hate education and history Y you guy so emotional?

/Caps for emphasis

Please stop being sensationalist they are super level headed in this video.

[Mittens]

You're all racist!

[Dacke]

Yeah, academic analysis and trying to understand cultural history & context is such BS. Way to be an anti-intellectual reactionary

[jamesprimate]

i think you are misunderstanding the article. there is little question that the early disney and WB cartoons that cuphead derives its style from are racist, and thats what the author is referring to. its a very worthwhile conversation to have --whether things that are inspired by racist things are themselves racist-- though not necessarily one thats common to videogame discussion and critique, hence your reaction to it.

reminds me of this:
https://www.vice.com/read/nazis-chic-is-asias-offensive-fashion-craze-456

to an uninformed person its just a cool looking symbol and military clothes, and maybe thats Studio MDHR in this context. certainly doesnt mean its not going to elicit a reaction from a person who is informed though.

[gimymblert]

There is also the case of a "post racial" culture whose imagery is entirely build on racist imagery, and the emotional meltdown that come with that realization.

[Mittens]

Disney = Racist
Cuphead is inspired by Disney therefore
Cuphead = Disney
THERFORE
CUPHEAD = RACIST!
Cuphead is a also inspired by video games
Videogames = Cuphead
Videogames = Racist
Video games are played by you people
In conclusion, you people are all racist

[Ashedragon]

Disney = Racist
Cuphead is inspired by Disney therefore
Cuphead = Disney
THERFORE
CUPHEAD = RACIST!
Cuphead is a also inspired by video games
Videogames = Cuphead
Videogames = Racist
Video games are played by you people
In conclusion, you people are all racist

Of course! It all makes so much sense now!

[Armageddon]

You and your clickbait thread!!  

Couldn't resist. I don't think they're accusing Cuphead of being racist I just think it's absurd that this even needs to be talked about. Walt Disney was pretty anti-semitic but that doesn't prompt a conversation about it whenever Disney makes a new product. (Marvel, Star Wars, etc.)

[Dacke]

Except it's not about Disney-the-person being a racist (which he was) but rather about the art referencing/evoking racist imagery (which it quite clearly does). The link you gave was factual, gave plenty of references and made it's point very clearly without being overly emotional. They showed what the connections to old racist art/tropes/imagery were. Then the individuals commented on how that made them feel personally, while leaving it up to the viewer to make their own judgement call.

You're the one with a stick up your butt if you can't stand people putting culture into context in an academic and factual manner.

[DJFloppyFish]

The video is a bit much for me. Saying that having bongos in the game invokes images of savagery is a bit unfair, especially when the example they provide is a picture of blatantly racist caricatures playing the bongos.

It also seems unfair to attribute the wackiness of the games' character to racist propaganda just because it shares the same art style. They didn't explicitly say it, but I think they were trying to say that characters dancing even invokes racist imagery. I don't know. I don't think there is any stopping those comparisons but I also think harping on them neglects the creators' likely innocent intentions. This sorta sends the message that the art style can't be claimed for a more innocent purpose no matter what.

[Dacke]

You can't look at single pieces of a work in order to decide whether it evokes racist imagery. It's almost always a combination of a number of different things. For example: neither curly hair, huge noses, a scheming expression nor kippahs are racist on their own. But put them together and you've likely got yourself an anti-semitic caricature.

Their claim is that in the context of old racist imagery, bongos evoke a 19th/20th century image of savagery. They're not saying that bongos are inherently racist

I don't care all that much about professed intentions. People say and do shitty things without realizing it all the time, which is why it makes sense to point out potentially problematic behaviour wherever we see it.

Which is the primary focus of the discussion. Is it acceptable to reuse racist imagery in silly ways for fun. Your position might be that it's perfectly fine. While they are more critical and think that this is a case where a line was passed. Where would you draw the line?

[gimymblert]

@DJFloppyfish

unfair to criticize that it takes direct inspiration from blatant racist caricature? that's some convoluted denial right there! I mean the author said they take direct inspiration!

And it's been wildly documented (by the racist themselves as they left ample rhetorics behind and the whole mindset of the era) what these representation exactly mean, it's not just interpretation.

And the comment on the art style make no sense since THEY DO reference another game who claim the same artstyle devoid of the bad stuff.

[jamesprimate]

plus, its not like this is reaching or speculation on the part of the critics, its unpacking the specific comics that the developers listed as their artistic references in previous interviews, and then providing historical context explaining why those comics were the way the were.

anyway, regardless of the context, those were really interesting links and discussion, thanks for posting it!

[jolene]

you'd have to be trying to be offended if you think mentioning a game is inspired by racist cartoons is unfair

[Cobralad]

this is dum

[Cobralad]

you all are dum

[Armageddon]

I'm sorry I even brought it up. I feel dumb, unintelligent, and shamed.

[TheLastBanana]

Definitely an interesting point about the face shapes, puffy lips, and exaggerated teeth relating back to Bosko and other racist cartoons. When I learned about Bosko, I did find it a little disturbing to think that a lot of beloved cartoon characters are ultimately based on something that overtly racist.

I would argue that a lot of those issues are ingrained in the style of animation that they're trying to capture. They gave the example of Fleisch & Cherry as a game that uses a similar style but avoids the unsettling racial aspects, but I'm not entirely sold.



As they mentioned, the game doesn't look as good. It seems to me that part of that is because it doesn't quite capture the animation style they're clearly going for -- it seems like a mishmash between 30s and modern animation. The biggest issue is probably how they move, but even looking at the still above, there's just something off. Though they have the Pacman shaped pupils characteristic of 30s animation, many of their eye shapes seem more like anime than like classic Fleischer Bros. A lot of their mouths and general face shapes look equally out-of-place.

Cuphead's visual style is based on an era of animation which was dominated by characters with inky skin and a very particular face shape. How do you make something that looks like those characters but strips away their two most easily recognizable features? There's probably a way to avoid the racial overtones while maintaining the style they're aiming for, but it seems like a very difficult balance to strike.

(Also, I'm not sure what they're referring to with the bongos. Do they mean the floating things with the flower boss? They just look like platforms made out of upended mushrooms to me, unless there's footage of the flower playing them that I've missed.)

[Mittens]

you'd have to be trying to be offended if you think mentioning a game is inspired by racist cartoons is unfair

I'm sure most developers (myself included) would love for others to look this deeply and to care this much about our own work.
I'm sure fans and the developers will shrug this off as the over-thinking of something nobody even thought about when making the game, but at least someone cares enough to criticize I guess.
Unfair, no. Pointless? probably