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[s0]

the only option left is the cis straight white guys are sjw and are trying to erase destroy their own gender?

some "anti-sjws" actually believe that lol

not much point arguing against someone who has deleted their account tho i guess 

[MrBones]

I have a serious question, not a form of criticism of any views in this thread or anything.
If a game is made to take place in a time where racism was actually prevalent, and either tries to mimic the racism of the time without poking fun at it or makes it prevalent in the game to make a point, is that a negative thing? Like if a game took place in the 1940's and racism was noticeable in the game, is that a massive problem or is it alright since it's only doing it to make a point about the period of time?

I have my own views but I'm curious since it's similar to the topic being discussed here.

[Armageddon]

I have a serious question, not a form of criticism of any views in this thread or anything.
If a game is made to take place in a time where racism was actually prevalent, and either tries to mimic the racism of the time without poking fun at it or makes it prevalent in the game to make a point, is that a negative thing? Like if a game took place in the 1940's and racism was noticeable in the game, is that a massive problem or is it alright since it's only doing it to make a point about the period of time?

I have my own views but I'm curious since it's similar to the topic being discussed here.

I'm also curious if something set in that time ignored the racism, how would that be seen. I remember Disney's The Princess and the Frog receiving some flack for not portraying it.

[s0]

I have a serious question, not a form of criticism of any views in this thread or anything.
If a game is made to take place in a time where racism was actually prevalent, and either tries to mimic the racism of the time without poking fun at it or makes it prevalent in the game to make a point, is that a negative thing? Like if a game took place in the 1940's and racism was noticeable in the game, is that a massive problem or is it alright since it's only doing it to make a point about the period of time?

my 2 cents: in theory it's a positive (nothing worse than romanticizing history) but i don't trust game developers to actually handle it well. one huge problem with 99% of "historical" games is that instead of doing actual research, the devs seemingly just rip off movies about about the time period theyre trying to depict. if they wanna do racism as a theme and do it well, they'll have to stop recycling cliches from old hollywood movies first.

i guess in the end trying is better than doing nothing tho. even if there's backlash it'll hopefully teach people how to do better in the future.

what exactly do you mean by 1940s btw

[JWK5]

You're going to piss some people either way, that's just the nature of our society.

Whether that is worth it or not is something I personally think is really going to come down to what the goal of the project is and whether or not the the inclusion of racism (or sexism or other prejudice) really serves it. You can bend and twist history all over the place especially when writing fantasy only loosely using a historical setting, but the closer you get towards trying to be historically accurate the more omitting the atrocities inherent to the time are going to become apparent and appalling to people, especially for those who are culturally still feeling the ripples of it.

I think the fact that Cuphead is trying to mimic the cartoons of the era so closely makes trying to dodge the stereotypes they were often loaded with difficult. I am willing to bet a lot of the stylistic traits of modern cartoon characters that are fairly innocent probably have origins in the bits and pieces carved out and evolved from older more racist cartoons, but they are so far removed from the originals that we don't see or recognize them as being such anymore. Cuphead has gone right back to the source, it borrows the styling without giving much thought to how toxic the stereotypes really were.

It's like those History Channel shows that portray how epic and awesome one side of a war battle was because its great TV but ignores all the atrocities they committed because that would just get in the way of all the patriotic glory the show is trying to celebrate. I don't think the people making Cuphead are racist, and I don't think the intent behind Cuphead is racist, I think they are just too enamored with the style to fully see its underlying toxicity and because of that they're not able to avoid it creeping up in their work.

[gimymblert]

You would need a lot of consulting and research, but in fact there is also a lot of fiction that address the problem tastefully, but then you can still risk to have racism as easy "gritty" background flavor and still have problematic plot and trope in context (ie having a white savior tropes rooted in colonialism, even if it doesn't relate to racism at all )

...

then you will realize that's literally all the current popular work already so you didn't do much better or will be notice. For example you like treasure hunting, travelling and exploration? how can you avoid the colonialist undertone of having a likable white asshole going around locals and exploiting their culture, poverty, vista and then destroying all of that without consequence and with praise of the locals... most of our tropes are based on century long racism, it takes real creativity and awareness to avoid them.

[gimymblert]

I mean it's hard even for people like me

[starsrift]

For example you like treasure hunting, travelling and exploration? how can you avoid the colonialist undertone of having a likable white asshole going around locals and exploiting their culture, poverty, vista and then destroying all of that without consequence and with praise of the locals... most of our tropes are based on century long racism, it takes real creativity and awareness to avoid them.

That's not racist. That shit happened in Yurop too among all the white guys. And in India, Japan, and esp. China, holy shit China, though that wasn't typically a story about a white dude.

I think you need to differentiate between something that is racist and projecting racism onto things. I mean if you can argue with a straight face that the story of Alexander the Great is racist because it has undertones of 18th century colonialism (something that happened a couple millennia after him), you gotta check your argument.
 
And before you start saying Alexander was racist, he was an equal opportunity conqueror. Unless you mean he liked white dudes more because he conquered Yurop before taking on Asia Minor.

[gimymblert]

there would be nuance that would require essay long deconstruction tonhighlight the difference. but i can point to some good example such as transformer 3 which painted china with enough care (ie asking and letting them contribute) to not fall intonthe trap. there is a very distinct and pervasive way tonuandle things that is not so great. old story aren't immune to this either depend on the treatment. actually old Movie is the reason the pattern has been notice, like those whitewash egyptian movie whose tradition is as old as hollywood, let's not even go into the fact that history has been whitewash, not only as erasing or diminishing contribution from some civilisation (islamic to science notably) or even minority (women) but literally by passing somenpeople of color as white and insular in color. the whole ''greek'' did it is very suspicious.

[gimymblert]

there would be nuance that would require essay long deconstruction to highlight the difference. but i can point to some good example such as transformer 3 which painted china with enough care (ie asking and letting them contribute) to not fall into the trap. there is a very distinct and pervasive way to handle things that is not so great. old story aren't immune to this either, depend on the treatment. actually old Movie is the reason the pattern has been noticed, like those whitewash egyptian movie whose  tradition is as old as hollywood, let's not even go into the fact that history has been whitewash, not only as erasing or diminishing contribution from some civilisation (islamic to science notably) or even minority (women) but literally by passing some people of color as white and insular in color. the whole ''greek'' did it is very suspicious.

[starsrift]

Gimmy you just went from suggesting racism was nearly unavoidable in that sort of story to saying there's nuance when that story of the trope is the same but the subjects aren't a white guy and a non-white area population - which happens reasonably often, both in fiction and history. So the trope isn't racist.. just the characters in it are?

This only goes back to character identities and has nothing to do with 'undertones of colonialism', unless you want to project them onto that story. I'm all for character racial diversity in games - and other media - but let's not make the lack of it out to be more than it is.

[gimymblert]

I tried to say it's hard to spot and avoid because of the culture who brought it to light. They replicate and refer to an ideological construction. For example OOT zelda has some big problem by using a large mix or racist tropes unknowingly. Ie those tropes depict power an moral hierarchy rooted in racist values.

I'm saying the difference between the same stories and use of tropes can effectively be subtle without the appropriate education.

For example in the iwata ask, when designing xenoblade, a woman dev intervene in the presentation of a scene to maintain the right tone: http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/wii/xenoblade/2/2

Takahashi This was initially a scene where Shulk touched her cheek to communicate his feelings for her. But Hattori-san pointed out that suddenly touching a woman's cheek while she's asleep could be construed as being a little creepy.

Hattori Well, the two of them aren't lovers, after all. That's why I thought it would be a little surprising for someone you weren't in a relationship with to suddenly touch your cheek while you were sleeping. It would spoil the innocent, naive nature of their love, and would make you think, "wait! Shulk's being a bit forward, isn't he"' (laughs)

Look at how a simple consideration turned around a scene without affecting the whole work.

There was a similar story about the playboy game and how some women in the staff shift a single gesture to the game into a less problematic one.

It's attention to details that make the difference

[s0]

Isn't brenda romero *less than happy* with the playboy game in retrospect?

Or at least I vaguely remember some article or interview where she says sth to the effect that she regrets having worked on it...?

[gimymblert]

Yes she is, but more about the whole context, especially in the game industry in the wake of recent events.

However it still a good example of how simple touch can turn around situation from creepy to adequate with the correct perspective, without transforming a work into hippie land

[Elsaess]

Well wasn't there something about how Jane Austen novels have the unspoken background that the families involved gained their original wealth and land through the colonisation of African land?

Yes, here it is. From Jane Austen's Emma and Empire: A Postcolonial View (by Kuldip Kaur Kuwahara):

As Edward Said points out in Culture and Imperialism, Fanny’s question about the slave trade is met with silence in Mansfield Park because “one world could not be connected with the other since there simply is no common language for both” (96).  Said concludes that “in order more accurately to read works like Mansfield Park, we have to see them in the main as resisting or avoiding that other setting.”

I guess one solution would be to have more diverse game developers, who can excavate histories that we wouldn't give that much thought to otherwise.

[gimymblert]

Bugs bunny is

[team_q]

Slavoj Žižek on Rammstein and nazism:





Basically affecting a style that is associated with bad connotations and intentionally unmarrying it from those connotations waters down and robs the toxic culture from some of it's power.

Also, just because someone says something could be problematic doesn't mean you have to stop, just bear in mind that people might think you are a jerk to go through with it, own your choices.

[gimymblert]

[team_q]

I think I'm going to love this series of Youtube videos.

[yeahjim]

I have a serious question, not a form of criticism of any views in this thread or anything.
If a game is made to take place in a time where racism was actually prevalent, and either tries to mimic the racism of the time without poking fun at it or makes it prevalent in the game to make a point, is that a negative thing? Like if a game took place in the 1940's and racism was noticeable in the game, is that a massive problem or is it alright since it's only doing it to make a point about the period of time?

I have my own views but I'm curious since it's similar to the topic being discussed here.

Did anyone else try throwing the baseball at the interracial couple in Bioshock Infinite? The beginning of the game keeps emphasizing "stay undercover, don't draw attention," so even if you aren't getting into character as a colonial racist, there is a pressing reason to throw the baseball instead of inviting a mob to turn on you and kill you.

I threw the baseball. But before the baseball could leave my hand, NPCs intervened for some contrived reason. How can you make a game that's supposed to explore racist themes and be such a complete pussy about it? I also hated how they attempted a false equivalency between the revolutionary slave lady and her overseers. It's like they weren't even able to commit to the idea that the oppressed should rise up.

My point is, if you are making a game that depicts a prejudiced society, do it authentically or don't do it at all. That means, if it's the Handmaid's Tale RPG, don't have your female protagonist be a wisecracking know-it-all. Have her be beaten down and all-too-ready to accept her lesser status. If we're looking at something set in Virginia in the 1820s, don't have every slave be a secret Harriet Tubman. By the same token, the guy in the Nazi hat? Just a regular dude.

If every protagonist is postmodern and lacks prejudice, or if you've got a voiceover reminding you that Japanese internment in the USA during WW2 was unjust, then two absurd ideas are perpetuated: 1) that prejudice is some kind of personal character flaw, and 2) that it's can be best described by its historical incarnations, like some kind of dead bug, rather than as a basic human sociological tendency that will live within and around us forever.