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[Faust06]

I threw the baseball. But before the baseball could leave my hand, NPCs intervened for some contrived reason. How can you make a game that's supposed to explore racist themes and be such a complete pussy about it?

Maybe it was cowardly. At any rate the half-hearted approach did not help the game's image. It was known pre-release BI would touch upon racist themes, sort of, and was slammed upon release by someone or other for adopting the shallow aesthetic of racism as a way to drive narrative with little in the way of actual exploration. It wasn't a "safe" approach, it was reckless.

That being said, reaction would have been worse with that scene including a straight pitch. You can't win exploring racism with any level of subtlety. That would be "problematic", you might say. You need that Brad Pitt in 12 Years A Slave character to chime in after the audience gets uncomfortable to say "racism is bad, mkay". That's where we're at.

I think the fact that Cuphead is trying to mimic the cartoons of the era so closely makes trying to dodge the stereotypes they were often loaded with difficult.

We're grossly underestimating the amount of early animation material. There are plenty of works unladen with stereotypes. It's not as if most character designs would have to be reconceived or thrown out today, and certainly not all sketches had those undertones. I don't see the difficulty. You can take a large detour around some familiar characters today may have once been used as stereotypes or for inappropriate sketches. Like Bugs Bunny, yeah.

So Cuphead's relationship with racism is akin to brushing up against a white nationalist at a packed time travel pub.

The only way to resolve the problem, if it has one, is for it not to exist. But by problematic I think most people mean "watch it, buster" and wag a finger, not "change something".

[Moth]

the weirdest things about cuphead to me are the black "devil" characters. wouldn't just making them be all red get the same idea across without treading as close to blackface? the first thing I saw of cuphead was actually the promotional image with the devil and it seemed strange to me, not surprised to see some discussion about it.

[gimymblert]

[JWK5]

We're grossly underestimating the amount of early animation material. There are plenty of works unladen with stereotypes.

Right, but my point is the specific ones they are mimicking are laden with stereotypes which will make it harder for them to avoid them. So in this case it is more like they wandered into a white nationalist meeting without fully realizing it exactly what was going on.

[Faust06]

We're grossly underestimating the amount of early animation material. There are plenty of works unladen with stereotypes.

Right, but my point is the specific ones they are mimicking are laden with stereotypes which will make it harder for them to avoid them. So in this case it is more like they wandered into a white nationalist meeting without fully realizing it exactly what was going on.

Seems like cherrypicking. They're mimicking a genre. Some of it is clearly stereotypical - doesn't mean those were specifically signaled out to be caricatured, just that were are, tragically, not unlike the rest. Just about everything will look similar to something else, especially since it's fairly simplistic in form, so it's a moot point. The influence of Fleischer stuff alone is still seen in animation today - and by extension, the similarities.

[yeahjim]

...the shallow aesthetic of racism as a way to drive narrative with little in the way of actual exploration. It wasn't a "safe" approach, it was reckless.

Very true, but if the responsible approach is to create storytelling that evolves people and brings us closer together, then most material currently being produced on the subject of race is fairly reckless, and appears to be growing more so. This whole issue is a subset of the voluntary dumbifiction of the human race - in turn growing out of 1) our newfound ability to create an insular culture out of virtually any hodgepodge of ideas, and 2) the absurd ease of access to information (accurate or inaccurate, without the prerequisite of learning.)

Honestly, I've never run into anything on the subject of race/class/privilege better than The Sneetches.

[Kinaetron]

We're grossly underestimating the amount of early animation material. There are plenty of works unladen with stereotypes.

Right, but my point is the specific ones they are mimicking are laden with stereotypes which will make it harder for them to avoid them. So in this case it is more like they wandered into a white nationalist meeting without fully realizing it exactly what was going on.

Seems like cherrypicking. They're mimicking a genre. Some of it is clearly stereotypical - doesn't mean those were specifically signaled out to be caricatured, just that were are, tragically, not unlike the rest. Just about everything will look similar to something else, especially since it's fairly simplistic in form, so it's a moot point. The influence of Fleischer stuff alone is still seen in animation today - and by extension, the similarities.

They aren't just mimicking a genre overall, their mimicking a very specific era in from a genre which did have some serious issues in terms of race at the time. Like people have said before they aren't being outright malicious or anything, but when you start taking from work from an era that was in fact very racist, I think it's fair to question if they are invoking that sort of imagery from that era.

[s0]

btw i still dont understand why its so terrible for devs to remove or change content because it has offensive connotations

1. it happens all the time (famous example: the islamic crescent moon symbol that was removed from zelda OOT)
2. its a 10000 times more respectable reason than "our focus group didn't like it" or some bs

[JWK5]

Let's not forget this doozy rejected from Fallout 2:

[s0]

oh also dark souls was at one point going to be called "dark race". ouch.

(knowing DS lore, i guess then "dark race" would have been the human race as a whole)

[Kinaetron]

oh also dark souls was at one point going to be called "dark race". ouch.

(knowing DS lore, i guess then "dark race" would have been the human race as a whole)

Oh... pretty glad they changed that one.

[SirNiko]

btw i still dont understand why its so terrible for devs to remove or change content because it has offensive connotations

1. it happens all the time (famous example: the islamic crescent moon symbol that was removed from zelda OOT)
2. its a 10000 times more respectable reason than "our focus group didn't like it" or some bs

The fact that something happens 'all the time' is not evidence that it is acceptable/good.

One problem with removing and changing content is that it is time consuming and costly. Little Big Planet's ship date was delayed due to complaints about

that contained lyrics from the Quran. For a small developer even a trivial change like the design of a boss enemy can eat into tight budgets for money or schedule and make the difference between shipping and going bankrupt.

In some cases, the new material may not be as good as the original; I personally don't like the '

' version of the Fire Temple music in Ocarina of Time compared to the 'original', and would have preferred it not be changed.

Another problem is complaints filed by individuals looking for notoriety or personal gain. In the case of bloggers, writing accusatory articles gets them page views and links from relevant organizations that rewards being offended, and makes intolerance of even perceived slights beneficial. Indulging complaints only legitimizes them and encourages more and more trivial complaints.

This is made worse if the individuals leveling the complaints were never going to be in the target audience to begin with; complaints about the sex scenes in Mass Effect 1 were levied by professionals who had never played the game or Jack Thompson's complaints that The Sims 2 catered to sexual predators.

There's also the problem that some minor complaints about any media (including games) are linked to larger controversies. For example, changes made to Little Big Planet and Ocarina of Time to address Islamic complaints could be considered as unintentionally aiding larger problems like censorship (sometimes violent) of materials critical of Islam. In the case of Cuphead in particular, it's easy to present a case that complaints are exaggerated or wholly fabricated to generate evidence of widespread racism that results in real-world laws favoring minorities.

That said, the complaints about Cuphead seem easy enough to address and I think the devs should address them. The important thing is to recognize that there are reasons to be dismissive of various complaints and demands, and you can admit those reasons exist and still choose to push for the change to be made.

[DJFloppyFish]

That was a good post, SirNiko. Well said.

[Faust06]

We're grossly underestimating the amount of early animation material. There are plenty of works unladen with stereotypes.

Right, but my point is the specific ones they are mimicking are laden with stereotypes which will make it harder for them to avoid them. So in this case it is more like they wandered into a white nationalist meeting without fully realizing it exactly what was going on.

Seems like cherrypicking. They're mimicking a genre. Some of it is clearly stereotypical - doesn't mean those were specifically signaled out to be caricatured, just that were are, tragically, not unlike the rest. Just about everything will look similar to something else, especially since it's fairly simplistic in form, so it's a moot point. The influence of Fleischer stuff alone is still seen in animation today - and by extension, the similarities.

They aren't just mimicking a genre overall, their mimicking a very specific era in from a genre which did have some serious issues in terms of race at the time. Like people have said before they aren't being outright malicious or anything, but when you start taking from work from an era that was in fact very racist, I think it's fair to question if they are invoking that sort of imagery from that era.

It is a genre, by virtue that you can instantly recognize it as such.

Both "animation was used inappropriately, over long periods, and possibly still - therefore it is a problem" and "30s animation was used inappropriately, therefore is a problem" rely on the same conceit. All forms of media from as recent as, say, the 60s to inception have been plagued by issues of racial insensitivity throughout, about as serious as what's found in 30s cartoons. Movies, television, comics (music?). Things didn't suddenly become squeaky clean following gradual stylistic changes - that's complete, utter fantasy. It would be dubious to suggest that the medium is "tainted" after eventually including racism without extending that argument to the whole of animation (which should equally apply to other media). Add to that, the highest volume of output has been produced during a mostly problematic century (which is to say, you can find instances of racism throughout most of it). The fact of the matter is, this is a genre, and it being associated to a shitty decade amongst other shitty decades means jack as far as its legitimacy as a form of expression or art is concerned.

A specific likeness to a specific design that's undoubtedly wrong: that's a problem, because it presents a clear association, but has nothing to do with the medium. Like the toothbrush 'stache. We can recognize racist imagery on a case by base basis as it surfaces. Does that not suffice?

TLDR: I don't think animation is a toothbrush mustache of media, and if it is, we're being very selective about which things are bad and which are not in ways that are entirely arbitrary.

the weirdest things about cuphead to me are the black "devil" characters. wouldn't just making them be all red get the same idea across without treading as close to blackface? the first thing I saw of cuphead was actually the promotional image with the devil and it seemed strange to me, not surprised to see some discussion about it.

Blackface would imply that the character is caucasian, painted black. Or that it's a stereotypical caricature of a black person. This seems about as weird as the black devils in Binding of Isaac, which is to say, not at all, since black (not the skintone, but charcoal black) and darkness is a tried and easy association with evil that's absolutely not novel in the least.

[gimymblert]

Games, aiether if you make a very quick or very deep assessment, is still deep into racist imagery, whether the author wanted it or not. Like for example the last of us.

[s0]

This is made worse if the individuals leveling the complaints were never going to be in the target audience to begin with; complaints about the sex scenes in Mass Effect 1 were levied by professionals who had never played the game or Jack Thompson's complaints that The Sims 2 catered to sexual predators.

yes but neither of those games were changed because these complaints were obviously baseless

the little big planet thing is way out of the scope of this thread unfortunately (esp now that radical islamists control parts of northern mali and have actually banned all music there), but it's different from removing a religious symbol and vocal sample that was used for purely aesthetic purposes from a game. i think OOT is better without the crescent symbol. i mean the gerudo are pretty much a racial stereotype to begin with so using a muslim symbol for them is kinda adding insult to injury.

The important thing is to recognize that there are reasons to be dismissive of various complaints and demands, and you can admit those reasons exist and still choose to push for the change to be made.

where did i say you should never be dismissive of complaints? my post was made with the "sjws censoring my games" people in mind. my point was that stuff gets changed in games a lot and for much dumber reasons (remember when devil may cry fans didn't like dante's hair?). and you can bet that lots of gams had potentially offensive content removed before release, only that those cases aren't publicized.

[gimymblert]

It's important to note that islam and radical islamist is not the same things.

Also the entitlement of consumption over basic respect is kinda gross. Especially in OOT which is a collection of gross racist stereotype, even though it's not intentional. In fact I wonder if PART of the game success is that it tap into deep unconscious western racism ... By treating "others" as element of you consumption enjoyment, there will be backlash at some point. especially when there is no "give and take", it's only "take", I mean you never see islam brought for their good aspect either, it's like there is an obsession with grabbing them in the mud. If you are dead set into humiliating people for entertainment then you have no business in consuming their culture.

I mean holy islamic prayer to convey evil creepy atmosphere...


It does not add anything at all to the mythos of the game, its purely decorative for no over reason.
More here:

[DJFloppyFish]

I mean holy islamic prayer to convey evil creepy atmosphere...


It does not add anything at all to the mythos of the game, its purely decorative for no over reason.
More here:

Yeah, I didn't fully understand the situation with that OoT song until now. It's completely disrespectful, there's just no justifying it. Seems like someone wanted to incorporate references to Islam like it was greek mythology, without really understanding the greater context of those references in the religion itself.

[s0]

cultural insensitivity is par for the course for videogames unfortunately. its often mindboggling how little research gamedevs do when makking gam about different cultures than their own. like that call of doody game set in iran with road signs in arabic. or the character "mad jack" from heavy rain.

[gimymblert]

I think it's the reverse, they do some research (I mean mostly asian dev) but go for the usual source, ie occidental, which, when applied naively, reveal all the bad subtexts (see re5 or Oot). Researching is often not much academic, it is really just typical high school research and string together "cool stuff". It's worse when you realize a lot of stuff has been destroyed and rewritten purposefully.