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[airman4]

Japan as any other country should hear everyday news about muslims terrorists killing and destroying stuff

This shit , grew up on you and when you want to please the west you know what to do to make it big in europe and usa

In the west , islam is not that popular , it's weird and hated.
So you have weirdness and bad people to portray in your game ? put islam in it.

If i tell everyday cows kills and rape children , believe me the day you'll see one in real life (if they were not all killed) you'll start to freak outand shooting the animal and for what ?
Nothing.

[SirNiko]

An unfortunate side effect of aggressively policing certain symbols like the crescent is that they go largely unused and remain alien and unfamiliar.

Contrast that to the NES Zelda titles which used crosses and churches liberally (even in the US releases, which underwent heavy editing by NoA). Ironically, putting a crescent on Link's best shield in Ocarina could be seen as a positive sign of it overtaking the cross.

Is the depiction of Islam in Ocarina as bad as the depiction of the Catholic church in Breath of Fire 2 or Final Fantasy Tactics? Both present the church as evil organizations working for a cruel, destructive god, and those are just two of the more overt depictions (killing God is practically a JRPG cliche). In Assassin's Creed 2 you literally stab the Pope while he is giving Mass in the Vatican (you fail to kill him at the time, but not for lack of trying), and in the first game you are fighting against the Crusades.

In the meantime, the real Catholic pope is calling for income equality and action on the climate, while many Islamic countries are still working on letting women be seen in public without a chaperone.

Once again, I feel like folks here are super quick to assume there are no good arguments to the contrary, and you're awfully quick to dismiss everything as "kinda gross", "mindboggling" and "completely disrespectful".

[gimymblert]

Killing gods is not killing (the) god, Islam is not catholic, they have their own set of values too.

And only showing them in negative concept make then familiar in the worst way possible.

I'm sure muslim are okay with positive depiction (as does most minority) the specific context is also that years of global colonization misconduct and humiliation have driven, by abuse of privilege, to not wanted being abused anymore (hence all the criticism), because the representation are unfairly imposed on us with great power.

Catholics church also have plenty and widespread benevolent imagery and representation.

The part about islamic country working on letting women be seen in public without a chaperon is ignorant distortion at best and effectively the reason why there is a criticism in the first place. It's useful to remember than radical islam is based on a modern distorted reading of quran, like for example downplaying the woman figure (such as kadija) and rely on selected hadith (ie comments not the quran itself). In fact there is a non reported movement where women use the quran to counter radical islamic's distortion, why not put that in a game?

The criticism is really about the distortion that bring more disrespect and the entertainment focus on driving negative image.

I mean you pick Jrpg as an example, first it's japan culture, and Japanese has no problem with hatred toward muslim. And in JRPG church are also save and heal point when they aren't major plot point, so there exist positive association too, I mean angel are often use as something positive too. And finally christian imagery is handled by people of christian tradition too, they know the nuance in assassin's creed and actually refer to history.

Now try to find any positive non random use of islamic culture that are respectful. That's when your example became false equivalence.

That's a problem for nearly all "minority", entertainment use mostly negative or harmful representation that please only a subset of privilege people and ties those minorities into negative views.

I mean when as the last time you have seen a white male hero associated with warmth and family, now try to find the same with any minority character in popular game. Try to find the delicate black honorable girl everyone want to protect, now try teh same for a white girl ...

This imbalance is the source of the criticism.

this imbalance is the one you don't see and make that there is little substance to argument than prone that portrayal, that are traditionally negative, could turn good, it doesn't as  a verifiable facts. Part is that people in power have no interest in knowing the other culture, only abuse tropes for their consumption, to feel good not with the other but against him.  Look at all the pleas that happen anytime we have a male protagonist that happen to be black, the rust debacle when they introduced mandatory black people (and the pleas for any color except black!).

There is zero display of good faith so far.

[SirNiko]

The part about islamic country working on letting women be seen in public without a chaperon is ignorant distortion at best and effectively the reason why there is a criticism in the first place.

Are you suggesting it is not against the law for women in Saudi Arabia to be seen in public without a chaperone? This is an article less than a month old, is it false?

My point isn't that Islam is bad; it's that there are plenty of reasons to not leap to its defense at small perceived slights, and that those minor slights are not limited to Islam especially in the realm of video games.

[gimymblert]

Saudi is not all the muslim country and it's also not representative of muslim history. It's not false it just not representative, the fact that you only know about those story and not the other are the heart of the problem. Did you read quran, did you interest you to the muslim culture from their own telling?

Muslim have been everywhere since a long time, if you are america, when was sthe last time you met a muslim girl with severe restriction like in this article. The caricature you point at is not the reality. Islam isn't a country, a race or an ethnicity either, your example conflate all of that. There is also the irony that occidental culture still shame woman for walking too late outside (see rape culture).

Country like saudi seem to be use as scapegoat to avoid to face this reality, just because they are worse don't mean we are good, we are only some decade away from them, it wasn't so long we did the same as a culture. We still have problem with the legacy of abrahamic culture consider women and that's why there is still civil right fight. America have yet to elected a woman as head of state, which would be considered a feat when it will happen, muslim country have had female leader for years ( Megawati Sukarnoputri in indonesia for example)! In fact during the years of the prophet, a woman, Aisha Abu Bakr, was leading army! In fact there is woman pilots in turkish army.

Here is what the Quran said about woman specifically:

"Hence, do not covet the bounties which God has bestowed more abundantly on some of you than on others. Men shall have a benefit from what they earn, and women shall have a benefit from what they earn. Ask, therefore, God out of His bounty: behold, God has indeed full knowledge of everything."(4:32)

disclaimer I'm not muslim and wasn't raise in this culture (raised as a catholics), it's as distant to me as other
.

That's the heart of the problem disproportionate and negative portrayal that caricature minorities as backward against the disproportionate positive representation against those minorities.

I mean can you even point to one positive portrayal of islam vs positive portrayal of christianity?

Also notice that the portrayal of an entire islamic culture as slutty thief was not attacked in itself (the gerudo) slight adjustement was made because the blatant association was one step too far. So the criticism was actually measured.

So the question is why on all things, the focus is so disproportionate on negative portrayal? while any proof is only gear not to understand but prove existing bias at the expense of obvious contradiction? Why such a narrative that create tension exist in the first place?

There is criticism to leverage against islam the same way that christianity is not devoid of it surely, but it cannot come from ignorance and falsehood!

And that's the goddamn point!

[s0]

I'm sure muslim are okay with positive depiction (as does most minority) the specific context is also that years of global colonization misconduct and humiliation have driven, by abuse of privilege, to not wanted being abused anymore (hence all the criticism), because the representation are unfairly imposed on us with great power.

isnt the crux of the issue more that certain branches of islam are against using any islamic symbols in "entertainment" media (including music) at all? the toumani diabate song in LBP was an example of positive depiction but was still taken out due to objections

[s0]

I think it's the reverse, they do some research (I mean mostly asian dev) but go for the usual source, ie occidental, which, when applied naively, reveal all the bad subtexts (see re5 or Oot). Researching is often not much academic, it is really just typical high school research and string together "cool stuff". It's worse when you realize a lot of stuff has been destroyed and rewritten purposefully.

honestly tho, u can find out which languages are spoken in iran in 2 minutes of reading a wikipedia article. the fact that devs of supposedly "realistic" games can't even get basic things like that right shows they don't give a shit

[jamesprimate]

honestly tho, u can find out which languages are spoken in iran in 2 minutes of reading a wikipedia article. the fact that devs of supposedly "realistic" games can't even get basic things like that right shows they don't give a shit

problem with "realism" is that people would have to have an understanding of reality. the vast amount of games are geared toward and audience who live in a separate reality constructed entirely from decades of misinformation, nationalistic propaganda and pure invention by hack writers in games / movies / comics/ fantasy / television etc. to them "realistic" means "conforms to my worldview as established by the other media i enjoy" and "the guns are the correct brand" and little else. so its no surprise that writers and devs who are hired based on success with that criteria pay little attention to things we'd assume to be basic fundamental aspects of reality like "correct language" or "geography" or "any semblance of historical accuracy" , as long as it conveys otherness or whatever mood drapery is needed.

long story short, basically im saying i think youre spot: its not that they're lazy (they're not), its that their audience doesnt give a shit and so they dont give a shit.

[SousaVilla]

Muslim have been everywhere since a long time, if you are america, when was sthe last time you met a muslim girl with severe restriction like in this article. The caricature you point at is not the reality. Islam isn't a country, a race or an ethnicity either, your example conflate all of that. There is also the irony that occidental culture still shame woman for walking too late outside (see rape culture).

That's an ad absurdum. He said that many islamic countries (not all) "are still working on letting women be seen in public without a chaperone" and you started talking about islamic culture/religion as a whole.

Even though its important to remember people that saudi is not the complete representation of muslims, the commom misconception of equating radical islamism with Islam, that's not what Sirniko said.

Catholics church also have plenty and widespread benevolent imagery and representation.

I cannot remember a single videogame that has positive representations of christianity, other than superficialities like save points in churches and angels. Do you remember any game that dealt with religion as a major theme in a positive way? All I can remember is: Souls series, Bayonetta, final fantasy tactics, lords of the fallen, oblivion, etc.

Games are very anti-clerical and anti-organized religion. Maybe its a consequence of its origins on the nerd-geek-tech subculture? The fact is, I have a hard time seeing islam or catholicism represented positively in such atmosphere. We are sons of the enlightment, our hero is a (kind of) nietzschean hero that has no affiliations to major organizations and see any state and religion with distrust. The only religion that I can remember having any positive representation is buddhism or some form of eastern mysticism. Just compare the games set in the east, where religions is an honorable institution, like Jade Empire, and games in the medieval west, where religion is an authoritative or corrupt institution, like the witcher.

[Alevice]

I dont think its fair to have islamist extremist who have focused on oppresive regiments to keep their rule be the vatican analogue.

[gimymblert]

Muslim have been everywhere since a long time, if you are america, when was sthe last time you met a muslim girl with severe restriction like in this article. The caricature you point at is not the reality. Islam isn't a country, a race or an ethnicity either, your example conflate all of that. There is also the irony that occidental culture still shame woman for walking too late outside (see rape culture).

That's an ad absurdum. He said that many islamic countries (not all) "are still working on letting women be seen in public without a chaperone" and you started talking about islamic culture/religion as a whole.

Even though its important to remember people that saudi is not the complete representation of muslims, the commom misconception of equating radical islamism with Islam, that's not what Sirniko said.

Yet you have many muslim country with women leader, so what? I don't think it's significant, christian country still has problem with regulating the female body too in different ways, it's the same same continuum of patriarchy, it's a feminist problem.

Also historically muslim women weren't that controlled until the advent of radical idea. Radical islamic idea isn't just terrorism, all Islamist terrorist are radical not all radical Islamist are terrorist.



Game with tangential christian element:
diablo 2
dante inferno (which put mohammed in the 8th circle "fraud")
any game with priest or paladin class and holy as a power
most management and rts.
They use christian values as inspiration in positive way, and most involve fighting christian like demon. Not all RPG are jrpg from square.

I'm sure muslim are okay with positive depiction (as does most minority) the specific context is also that years of global colonization misconduct and humiliation have driven, by abuse of privilege, to not wanted being abused anymore (hence all the criticism), because the representation are unfairly imposed on us with great power.

isnt the crux of the issue more that certain branches of islam are against using any islamic symbols in "entertainment" media (including music) at all? the toumani diabate song in LBP was an example of positive depiction but was still taken out due to objections

There is that too, but there was similar taboo with christianity or even national symbol in many country. But it seems that recent tension and an history of humiliation fuel an anti occidental/capitalist narrative, which in turn fuel conservative local hardcore interpretation of values. One stats show that a lot of "foreigner" sign up to blow themselves up for islamist for the same reason. Like you said there is a regain in conservative and fascist value in the realm of a rapidly changing world with no new positive narrative to these change. It culminate in a complex situation where confusion is the main driver and sensitivity is heighten. One main confusion is the need for a respectful pushback unfortunately currently blurred by radical and hateful pushback, the main effect is that the radical pushback is used to devaluate the respectful pushback with in turn fuel radical pushback.


What Islam Really Says About Women | Alaa Murabit | TED Talks




also people would be surprise to know how much muslim faith was progressive in its time and actually inspired modern occidental values, unfortunately erased by political envy that used the christian faith and retcon history with the greece at the expense of other influence.

[Kinaetron]

We're grossly underestimating the amount of early animation material. There are plenty of works unladen with stereotypes.

Right, but my point is the specific ones they are mimicking are laden with stereotypes which will make it harder for them to avoid them. So in this case it is more like they wandered into a white nationalist meeting without fully realizing it exactly what was going on.

Seems like cherrypicking. They're mimicking a genre. Some of it is clearly stereotypical - doesn't mean those were specifically signaled out to be caricatured, just that were are, tragically, not unlike the rest. Just about everything will look similar to something else, especially since it's fairly simplistic in form, so it's a moot point. The influence of Fleischer stuff alone is still seen in animation today - and by extension, the similarities.

They aren't just mimicking a genre overall, their mimicking a very specific era in from a genre which did have some serious issues in terms of race at the time. Like people have said before they aren't being outright malicious or anything, but when you start taking from work from an era that was in fact very racist, I think it's fair to question if they are invoking that sort of imagery from that era.

It is a genre, by virtue that you can instantly recognize it as such.

Both "animation was used inappropriately, over long periods, and possibly still - therefore it is a problem" and "30s animation was used inappropriately, therefore is a problem" rely on the same conceit. All forms of media from as recent as, say, the 60s to inception have been plagued by issues of racial insensitivity throughout, about as serious as what's found in 30s cartoons. Movies, television, comics (music?). Things didn't suddenly become squeaky clean following gradual stylistic changes - that's complete, utter fantasy. It would be dubious to suggest that the medium is "tainted" after eventually including racism without extending that argument to the whole of animation (which should equally apply to other media). Add to that, the highest volume of output has been produced during a mostly problematic century (which is to say, you can find instances of racism throughout most of it). The fact of the matter is, this is a genre, and it being associated to a shitty decade amongst other shitty decades means jack as far as its legitimacy as a form of expression or art is concerned.

A specific likeness to a specific design that's undoubtedly wrong: that's a problem, because it presents a clear association, but has nothing to do with the medium. Like the toothbrush 'stache. We can recognize racist imagery on a case by base basis as it surfaces. Does that not suffice?

TLDR: I don't think animation is a toothbrush mustache of media, and if it is, we're being very selective about which things are bad and which are not in ways that are entirely arbitrary.

the weirdest things about cuphead to me are the black "devil" characters. wouldn't just making them be all red get the same idea across without treading as close to blackface? the first thing I saw of cuphead was actually the promotional image with the devil and it seemed strange to me, not surprised to see some discussion about it.

Blackface would imply that the character is caucasian, painted black. Or that it's a stereotypical caricature of a black person. This seems about as weird as the black devils in Binding of Isaac, which is to say, not at all, since black (not the skintone, but charcoal black) and darkness is a tried and easy association with evil that's absolutely not novel in the least.

I'm more than aware how these problem have persisted well past 30's animation, but that isn't what is being brought up here. What I'm making a point about is the fact that the particular game is referencing this animation style and the animation style has especially dubious issues in terms of presenting people of colour. I just think it's fair to question whether or consciously or not they have this sort of imagery in their game. I really love animation and I like the look of Cuphead, but asking these kind of questions is important and I think it's especially important for us as fellow game developers to evaluate and assess this sort of thing.
 

Also on a side note, while if the devil character being black is for the most part innocuous, the lips of the character are tipping it's hat to something closer to black face. On top of that even back then the colour of the devil tended to be red and again this sort of thing just got me raising an eyebrow

[Superb Joe]

[proud and heroic voice] I am.

[jamesprimate]

some interesting context from WB's presentation of its old content.