next »

[Cobralad]

are developers racist?

[Dacke]

I'm sorry I even brought it up.

I'm glad you did, I thought it was very interesting! And if you learned something, then all the better

Unfair, no. Pointless? probably

Except that it helps us to better understand some of the racism built into our cultural tradition. It also shows us that, at least for some people, this type of imagery still feels loaded with racism (and since racism is still rampant today, this is important to at least consider). So unless you think history and other's feelings are pointless, I don't understand where you're coming from.

are developers racist?

In some sense, most likely yes. In today's society it's almost impossible to not to have at least some racist prejudices and blind spots. Example study that exposes some unspoken racism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_and_Mamie_Clark#Doll_experiments

Similar results can be replicated today:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/05/13/doll.study/

[gimymblert]

@TheLastBanana
Another example is sonic, it took huge cues from that era and still come off fine!

[oahda]

Except it consistently treats Amy like "dum wymyn" and everyone else is a boy

[jiitype]

Archie Comics Sonic is the only true Sonic

[DJFloppyFish]

I suppose I misunderstood. I saw this as a case of people copying old, less offensive cartoons and then having that inspiration immediately attributed to the racist cartoons that share the same art style. If it's as cut and dry as the authors themselves admitting to taking from racist cartoons, then it is another story. I still think intentions matter though.

Since it's clear where the inspiration is from, isn't it kind of up to audience members to decide if actual malice was intended? Or is the invocation enough to make it inherently problematic/wrong?

I'm just to figure this out for myself. I don't really appreciate being called in denial. I just don't have all the information here.

[gimymblert]

Except it consistently treats Amy like "dum wymyn" and everyone else is a boy

Touché ... at least they avoid the racist stuff

Intention matter, but just like the swatiska it's susceptible to eyebrows raising and education.

REMEMBER NO ONE CALL THE GAME RACIST EXCEPT OP 

Nobody even said it was wrong! they just pointed out the origin and express their discomfort and contrast it to another game.
People do that all the time to explore the lore of games, there is huge post on mgs2 about the various reference.

YET for racism, sexism and any other serious stuff that affect people life, people express discomfort at other people being threaten by things that have direct impact on their life

[Sgt. Pepper]

are developers racist?

Well, the word list (from A Word Game) called "all.dat" may have some, ahem, "racially dated" words..

[airman4]

reminder that everything is ether racist, sexist, or usually both

Well , if the industry doesnt want to be called racist , they should hire more people from diversity
Or push feature more diversity people in this aera.
cause we see the same stuff over and over and people are tired of it

How many black men heroes (main character) in games of this e3 can we count ?

1 ?
15 ?
50 ?
456 ?
the infinite ?


0 ?

[DJFloppyFish]

this thread title led me astray. carry on w/ actual discussion.

[TheLastBanana]

@TheLastBanana
Another example is sonic, it took huge cues from that era and still come off fine!

True, but I don't think that's an apt comparison. There's a world of difference between taking cues from a style and actually trying to emulate it.

I know "authenticity" gets thrown around a lot as an excuse to ignore issues of race and gender in games, but I think it actually applies in this situation. The developers are using "traditional cel animation (hand drawn & hand inked!), watercolor backgrounds, and original jazz recordings" to replicate classic cartoons as closely as possible. It makes sense to me that they would also imitate the face shapes prevalent in those cartoons.

The face shapes used in the game don't even seem to imitating the more objectionable ones from the old cartoons they cited. For example, they consider this spider racially coded because it has large eyes, a round nose, and goofy teeth. The two images shown immediately afterward are of a black stereotype and a Japanese stereotype. But compare them to Private Snafu and Elmer Fudd, who are both well-known white characters:



They all have the same pear-shaped heads, round, garlic-shaped noses, and goofy teeth. It seems to me that those characteristics aren't necessarily used to connote racial stereotypes so much as they are to indicate a ridiculous character. Obviously the first two images contain plenty of other elements of racial stereotypes (watermelon, round glasses, slanted eyes, etc.), but none of those are present in Cuphead.

Similarly, they point out this octopus' lips. Yet it's very common to find anime/chibi-style octopi with the same rounded lips:



Given the context of 30s animation, I can appreciate the connection to animated black stereotypes. But given the more immediate context of it being an octopus, it seems less like it's coded as a black person and more like it's coded as... well, an octopus.

It can certainly be argued that I'm not making these connections because it's not my cultural heritage at stake. Quoting a comment the video's creators made on YouTube, "the connections or lack thereof do come from the way different people see animation from the highlighted period, their visceral reactions, the connotations certain styles have for them." So I can appreciate that I may just be inclined not to make those connections.

But let's look at an example that's more relevant to me:

are clearly based on this ghost from one of the cartoons that Cuphead's creators cited as an inspiration. The ghost is a Jewish stereotype with a big nose and an exaggerated Yiddish accent, and the only ghost in the graveyard who seems to approve of Bimbo's sinning. I have Jewish family, but I can't say I find the flower all that uncomfortable -- yes, it obviously calls back to something objectionable, but it removes the overt racism and re-purposes it for something innocent and fun that still stays true to the original animation's style. I feel the same way about the rest of the game's content.

[gimymblert]

That's a good quality answer!

But as you note only ridicule character are frame with these tropes, and that's mostly all black and racial character in those cartoon. I don't think people mistook those octopi lips with sambo like caricature, so far there was never a connection made with the too (except the unfortunate pokemon which they made "black"). But that spider is black, of course it will raised eyebrows, it's not even the white faced character.

I think, as I'm a fan of this type of animation too, that no one is calling the game racist, it does no better or worse than your own post, especially the end, you just point critically at the imagery used. However there is still place to evoke the possibility of doing differently as a way to educate and raise awareness instead of condemning.

I mean if can call out kojima for being too heavy handed with exposition and appreciate is works, we can call out racist inspired work for being too close to source material awkwardly without being a condemnation.

[TheLastBanana]

Absolutely, yeah. It's worthwhile to be aware of the uncomfortable origins of the game's animation style. That doesn't make the game bad or wrong, and I'm sure none of the connections being made here were intended by the developers. But "death of the author" and all that -- the connections are still there to be made. Personally, I don't find anything terribly objectionable about the game, but it's definitely treading on dangerous ground and I can see why others might take issue with certain aspects of its style.

I'm curious to see whether any of this changes by the time the game has released. Some of the stuff we're discussing has been downplayed a bit since the

, so it's possible that they're modifying certain characters to avoid these problems.

[Capntastic]

It's a good thing when people are cognizant of prejudices and stereotypes inherent in certain cultural troves and they sidestep them to fill their backpacks of inspiration elsewhere

[45edftyu]

But let's look at an example that's more relevant to me:

are clearly based on this ghost from one of the cartoons that Cuphead's creators cited as an inspiration. The ghost is a Jewish stereotype with a big nose and an exaggerated Yiddish accent, and the only ghost in the graveyard who seems to approve of Bimbo's sinning.

Max Fleischer Presents

Director: Dave Fleischer

Max Fleischer (July 19, 1883 – September 11, 1972) was an Polish Jewish American animator, inventor, film director and producer.

David "Dave" Fleischer (July 14, 1894 – June 25, 1979) was an American animation film director and film producer, best known as a co-owner of Fleischer Studios with his two older brothers Max Fleischer and Lou Fleischer.

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Right so do we need a fucking primer on literary criticism that we can paste into each thread like this?

The author's personal history (while important in some contexts) and beliefs (while definitely interesting) are not the end all be all of perceiving the work.

It doesn't matter whether he was jewish or anti semitic, it can still be a jewish stereotype.

To illustrate this further: If I said that a painting was the color pink and you told me 'aha, actually, the artist was colorblind and only saw grey!' i would not give a fuck. It's still pink regardless of what the creator saw. That's historical trivia, it doesn't change the piece.


When you bring up that kind of fact as if it has tremendous significance you are arguing a well trodden stance called historicism. There is nothing wrong with that, but it's one very specific way of looking at a piece of work, not some kind of absolute trump card that stifles all other discussion.

[TheLastBanana]

My point was that, by modern standards, the Jewish stereotype in that cartoon would be objectionable. If you were to transpose the ghost directly into Cuphead, people would have a problem with it. But making use of certain aspects of the character while stripping it of its more overtly stereotypical parts is, at least to me, okay.

Still, I think 45edftyu brings up a valid point that my comparison isn't totally fair. Black stereotypes were far more prevalent, and to some degree even ingrained, in that era of animation. Jewish stereotypes certainly came up, but not nearly as often -- likely because many of the prominent animators, producers, and directors were themselves Jewish. So there's definitely a power dynamic there that I'm not really addressing.

[45edftyu]

Right so do we need a fucking primer on literary criticism that we can paste into each thread like this?

The author's personal history (while important in some contexts) and beliefs (while definitely interesting) are not the end all be all of perceiving the work.

It doesn't matter whether he was jewish or anti semitic, it can still be a jewish stereotype.

To illustrate this further: If I said that a painting was the color pink and you told me 'aha, actually, the artist was colorblind and only saw grey!' i would not give a fuck. It's still pink regardless of what the creator saw. That's historical trivia, it doesn't change the piece.


When you bring up that kind of fact as if it has tremendous significance you are arguing a well trodden stance called historicism. There is nothing wrong with that, but it's one very specific way of looking at a piece of work, not some kind of absolute trump card that stifles all other discussion.

lol

[45edftyu]

Props and Statues guy for Sunset

a primer on literary criticism from a guy that thinks namedropping 'the art of war' in your game is high-brow

[joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

also a brief primer on what 3d artists do/don't contribute when they'd hired for a game.