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March 29, 2024, 04:34:46 AM

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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesCuphead isn't really racist
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45edftyu
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« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2015, 01:30:39 PM »

also a brief primer on what 3d artists do/don't contribute when they'd hired for a game.
well next time give your clients 'a fucking primer' like you provided me

after all i'm someone you have no real interaction with at all and i got fucking PWNED! so i would think a paying customer can get an even better education
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joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2015, 01:33:56 PM »

in a world where condescending to someone about literary criticism is pwning them, one man takes a stand for what's right.
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45edftyu
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« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2015, 01:41:30 PM »

yes your tumblr education in literary criticism is superior to my university one

how could i forget that context doesn't matter in 2015... rookie mistake - if only i'd read more cracked.com i could have been spared that verbal smackdown
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JWK5
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« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2015, 02:20:47 PM »

I don't think the creators of Cuphead are going for the same meaning the original animators of these cartoons had in mind, even if they are going for the same style. From what I've seen there aren't any direct racist portrayals (I could be wrong, I've yet to see all of it in play), sure there are bits and pieces here and there that under the right context could be construed as racist, but I don't believe the Cuphead game is providing that context. I think their focus is on the elasticity and exaggeration of the features, not arranging them into racist stereotypes (but again, I could be wrong). There is a difference between borrowing the chords of an offensive song because you like the sound and repeating its lyrics because you like the meaning. A lot of things have ugly roots but that does not mean that over time they can't be divorced from those roots and be put to a more positive use (consequently causing the original meanings to lose its power and fade with time).

Though this all begs the question of what racist or offensive origins might be found in the construction of other video game characters...




Also, why is so little focus given to the consistent and harsh way in which specific human forms are depicted. For example, it is a very rare occurrence that an overweight character is not a complete joke or some reference isn't made about how they stuff their face or how their movements tend to revolve around sitting on their victims or flailing their gut at them.





If we are truly going to dive into the topic of offensive stereotypes we should be ready to open the issue up entirely. If we dig deep we're likely to find uncomfortable origins in most our favorite works.
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« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2015, 02:27:21 PM »

anyway it's a bit disingenuous to say historical context doesnt matter when the argument is that the game draws on a history of racist cartoons.

also uhhh yeah ganondorf is a pretty unfortunate character design in a lot of ways.
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45edftyu
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« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2015, 02:30:47 PM »

anyway it's a bit disingenuous to say historical context doesnt matter when the argument is that the game draws on a history of racist cartoons.

ty
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Dacke
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« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2015, 02:34:30 PM »

Catguy:
I agree, having a primer handy would be a great idea. Maybe in the form of a thread with a good first post? One thing gamergate has taught me is that lots of "gamers" are completely critically illiterate.

JWK5:
I agree that it's interesting to dig in general.

But I think one important thing about references/roots are how strongly they actually impact people. In this case we have people pointing it out and expressing that they feel uncomfortable towards Cupcake. This is also true about Ganondorf, I think. This in itself separates them in a significant way from arbitrarily digging up problematic roots for other things. It doesn't make other digging any less interesting, but it's not as politically potent.

I also agree that fatphobic imagery is incredibly problematic and worthy of discussion on its own. But it doesn't really impact whether Cupcake is acceptable or not.
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45edftyu
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« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2015, 02:36:50 PM »

Catguy:
I agree, having a primer handy would be a great idea. Maybe in the form of a thread with a good first post? One thing gamergate has taught me is that lots of "gamers" are completely critically illiterate.
well it's a damn good thing you two are here to educate everyone then Smiley
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Dacke
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« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2015, 02:39:14 PM »

I know nothing about your knowledge. Perhaps you are well read and have decided that historicity is the way to go. But your terrible behavior in this thread doesn't fill me with confidence.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2015, 02:47:49 PM »

OOt has been joked as the nazi's world we know it isn't, but we are all aware of the failing of the game, they changed the gerudo emblem from Islamic to their own symbol for a reason!

http://girlsincapes.com/2014/02/19/non-diversity-gerudo-valley-in-the-legend-of-zelda/



If you are a black, a ginger, life in a desert, have a islamic flag, wear romani clothes, and have jewish nose, but also ONLY women to be lust over, of course you would be greedy, thief and evil? right? Huh? so the male white cis blond hero can come and kill your only male who obviously lust for power.





Black, jewish, and ginger still love the game anyway, but little zelda getting bad vibes from ganon is racist  Wizard
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JWK5
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« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2015, 02:48:30 PM »

anyway it's a bit disingenuous to say historical context doesnt matter when the argument is that the game draws on a history of racist cartoons.
Are you referring to me? Because I didn't say context doesn't matter I said I didn't believe Cuphead is providing the same racist context the original creators did.

Though as I am writing this I got a look at more of the game I hadn't seen before, and apparently they'd done a few redesigns too. So I don't know, I am on the fence with it at the moment. I don't believe their intention was to recreate the racist meaning, yet some of it I am seeing is pretty disconcerting.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2015, 02:51:54 PM »

The real thing is that we used the racist, sexist and other bad representation for so long, we are at lost we want to be creator, indulge on the visual legacy and not have a meltdown to know the origin of those stuff. Of course that mean creating new visual and imagery, which mean to be true creator, but hey everything is a remix right? Who can be a true creator to create new positive image when everything has been done, and the result is only racism Giggle
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« Reply #52 on: June 30, 2015, 02:53:15 PM »

Quote
Are you referring to me? Because I didn't say context doesn't matter I said I didn't believe Cuphead is providing the same racist context the original creators did.

i was referring to catguy kinda, but it was meant as a more general statement about some of the arguments in this thread. also i don't think the question of whether authorial intent matters is even that important here. just because ur a "minority" doesn't mean youre some sort of morally pure Perfect Good Person(tm). Maybe Fleischer wanted to cater to an audience that finds racist stereotypes amusing and just didn't care? who knows?

anyway,
Quote
There is a difference between borrowing the chords of an offensive song because you like the sound and repeating its lyrics because you like the meaning.

chords might be a bit too generic (i don't think there are any specific chords predominantly used in racist songs lol), but if you took the tune of a racist song and wrote non-racist lyrics for it things would get a little more complicated.

i can't think of a single irl example of this btw, because most racist songs are actually "parodies" of non-racist songs, so basically the other way around.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 03:03:07 PM by Silbereisen » Logged
JWK5
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« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2015, 03:17:38 PM »

Another problem is that the style itself, even outside its original racist contexts, is built on caricatures. Caricatures are created by exaggerating prominent features in the subject. The thing is, ancestrally and culturally people have a lot of prominent features in common and when creating a caricature of someone you can inadvertently be creating a caricature of a whole group of people. It is a very fine line to walk, a line which the cartoonists of that era really bother with. I think that is where my discomfort with the Cuphead game comes in, the creators really weren't paying attention to that line either so with some of their characters (at least of the ones I've seen) it seems they've brought in those racist qualities without looking at what they were meant to exaggerate and why. They mimicked the cartoons' style without really thinking about their intent. If their reworking of characters is any indication they're probably realizing that now in the wake of growing backlash.






Direct caricatures is an art form I've always steered clear of, if you don't exaggerate a person's prominent features the caricature pretty much fails but if you do you're always teetering dangerously close to poking fun at attributes which are racially or culturally prominent. I don't know that I have the chops for it. Even outside of direct caricatures it is a line most of us visual creators have to walk because just about anything we create is a caricature of something (especially where even the most vaguely human characters are concerned).



chords might be a bit too generic...
I made that statement before I saw the bits of the game I was checking out when I wrote my last post. It looks like they may have accidentally borrowed some of the lyrics along with the chords.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 03:34:38 PM by JWK5 » Logged
SirNiko
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« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2015, 03:49:49 PM »

It doesn't even have to be as subtle as borrowing a tune or chords. If you grew up with / studied that kind of imagery in a specific work of art it can become a defining part of your background, even if you later become aware of the stereotypes inherent in it.

Speedy Gonzales cartoons were rife with Mexican stereotypes (including negative ones such as depictions of lazy, sleepy Mexican mice), but Speedy was otherwise a positive protagonist who was clearly Mexican, clearly the hero, and always won through skill or cleverness (as opposed to dumb luck). When Warner Bros. announced they'd stop playing the cartoons, a local radio station talked to Hispanics on the street (who, admittedly, were probably more Cuban and Puerto Rican than Mexican) who had overwhelmingly positive recollections of the character.

I think you could effectively argue either way - that the negative elements have tainted the whole of the material too much for it to be kept, or that the negative elements could be reduced (eg, eliminate the most negative stereotypes) to salvage the positive recollections that people hold of the character. The people who associate with that character (because they watched the cartoons or consider elements of the cartoons important, not just because the character represents their race/ethnicity) are likely to argue in favor of keeping him because throwing away a large part of their experience is a huge loss, and that's a logical and respectable position to hold.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2015, 04:07:12 PM »

@sirniko
Isn't that the problem with the RedSkin (among other see Cleveland)? Do you think this position is really logical and respectable?
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joseph ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2015, 04:22:52 PM »

anyway it's a bit disingenuous to say historical context doesnt matter when the argument is that the game draws on a history of racist cartoons.

also uhhh yeah ganondorf is a pretty unfortunate character design in a lot of ways.

 ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ beyond 'we agree that at some point these images became associated with race' the history is basically irrelevant.

Like, I get thats a historical factor itself, but it's so divorced from any other dumb squabbles we can get into about speedy gonzales cartoon radio shows or authorial intent.
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« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2015, 06:09:59 PM »

chords might be a bit too generic (i don't think there are any specific chords predominantly used in racist songs lol), but if you took the tune of a racist song and wrote non-racist lyrics for it things would get a little more complicated.

i can't think of a single irl example of this btw, because most racist songs are actually "parodies" of non-racist songs, so basically the other way around.

This comes up every so often in the U.S., because some of the classic songs and rhymes we learned as kids (like Oh Susanna!, Jimmy Crack Corn, Shortnin' Bread, Camptown Races, Eeny-meeny-miney-moe, etc.) were cleaned-up versions of songs/rhymes from more racist days, like blackface minstrel show songs.  Sometimes just words changed, sometimes verses removed, sometimes with all the same lyrics but not in the stereotypical minstrel-show accent.

So parents/teachers/entertainers/etc. sometimes do get into this debate, whether you shouldn't teach kids the sanitized versions (in hopes that the songs will be eventually forgotten) or whether you should (so as to drown out the bad versions with innocuous ones).
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Sik
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« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2015, 06:50:28 PM »

Speedy Gonzales cartoons were rife with Mexican stereotypes (including negative ones such as depictions of lazy, sleepy Mexican mice), but Speedy was otherwise a positive protagonist who was clearly Mexican, clearly the hero, and always won through skill or cleverness (as opposed to dumb luck). When Warner Bros. announced they'd stop playing the cartoons, a local radio station talked to Hispanics on the street (who, admittedly, were probably more Cuban and Puerto Rican than Mexican) who had overwhelmingly positive recollections of the character.

There's also the catch that Mexicans watched the cartoon in perfectly correct Spanish since it was dubbed, so they missed out on all the language-based stereotyping (and I'm not sure if anything else may have been altered).
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gimymblert
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« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2015, 07:20:19 PM »





verify




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUH8ls7BkOA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccSp0XnAGFU
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 07:46:53 PM by Jimym GIMBERT » Logged

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