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[gimymblert]

The main thing with speedy gonzales was that the lead wasn't stereotypical, only its relatives (which are introduced much later in the lore), and he was smarter and more skilled than the opponent, there is an element of "diversity" of representation (not all mexican as seen with speedy) and empowerment (speedy being mexican himself and the lead). SO the relation became less about power dynamic against two representation and more about a universal tales because we all have lazy relatives. OF course discounting some problematic visual metaphor an element of language (don't remember if there was any in the french version beside "ariba").

It's more nuanced than that, and speedy is a good example of a nuance above other example.


edit: I can't find any example of the lazy relative, there was a big one and a small one, there was also although slow rodriguez but he is own brand of skillful

not sure if better Also the fixation chili and tacos ...

The main thing is are we laughing AT or are we laughing with, which element are supposed to be funny and why?

[FK in the Coffee]

My first though while I was watching this was skepticism; I went into it expecting them to be grasping at straws, but the critique was very well-done. I think it's important to note that /gamers/ can't expect games to be taken seriously as art if they're treated as some sort of critical island, exempt from the kind of criticism literature, film, and music have been receiving for decades, if not centuries. I'm in the boat that thinks the context is divorced enough from the era of its inspiration to where people playing won't make the connections to the stereotypes mentioned in this video, nor do I believe it was the creators' intention to make light of those stereotypes in Cuphead, but it's important to be cognizant of their influence. It's fully possible to enjoy Cuphead and recognize its more problematic aspects at the same time.

It's still a gorgeous-looking game, don't get me wrong. The video makes some good points, though.

[Sik]

edit: I can't find any example of the lazy relative, there was a big one and a small one, there was also although slow rodriguez but he is own brand of skillful

not sure if better Also the fixation chili and tacos ...

Being able to make efficient use of minimum effort takes skill.

[Elsaess]

Yes, this is problematic.

While the game looks beautiful, we have to be aware that a lot of us are looking at it from a privileged (white) position. My initial response to this debate was how hard it must be for the developers, who have obviously put a lot of love into this project, to be faced with accusations of racism. My second response was how hard it must be for people who have suffered from racism to see their life experiences (and their family's and community's life experiences going back centuries) so glibly put aside in the name of a game.

It does appear that the developers are in love with the animation style, but it is something that has to be unpacked a little.

I'm also a little disappointed at the people rejecting such analysis. They have to understand that literally everything on the planet comes from somewhere and can be analysed. There is no such thing as "thinking too much". Some of these people remind me of the dropouts I went to college with ("Why analyse anything??"). Even if videogames were a trivial medium and there were no claims to "games as art", they would still be worthy of this analysis.

I'm undecided. I love the look of the game, but knowing where it comes from makes me uneasy. It's like Woody Allen. His films are great, but now that he's under suspicion of sexually molesting Dylan Farrow I just can't bring myself to be his cheerleader anymore.

This is a hugely important thing right now, especially after the last few years of extremely high profile racist attacks. I don't know the answer.

[s0]

it's the same thing as luftrausers using nazi imagery imo: the problematic part isn't so much that theyre using the aesthetic, but that theyre just toying around with it/using it bc they think it looks nice. that's the impression i get from the game at least.

[Elsaess]

Yes, it is quite similar to Luftrausers in that way. You're right. I suppose a lot of traditionally offensive imagery has become lost within postmodernism and meme culture over the last decade or two, and it's easy to lose sight of their original meaning.

There can be exceptions. For example, Kanye West tried to reappropriate the Confederate flag. I think a few rappers have tried this - and rap is a traditionally black artform that might find it appropriate to engage in this kind of political action. The difference here is that it is a thought-out political act, and it is punching upwards against oppression. Cuphead and Luftrausers don't share this position (and I won't call it a luxury, because I don't think it's a luxury to speak out against hundreds of years of an oppression that is still ongoing).

[gimymblert]

It's however a luxury to use the imagery without caring

[Elsaess]

Precisely! It's about respect and power.

[Boreal]

"This game is based off of 80 year old cartoons and in this scene the characters are dancing and in a racist cartoon that came out 80 years ago the characters are dancing therefore this game is evoking racism and is thus problematic please give me money"

They're beating a dead horse, and it's getting somewhat hidden away because they're doing it through the context of Cuphead.  Nothing to see here.

[gimymblert]

there no beating a dead horse when so many had that fact flying over their head and the subject of old cartoon representation and tropes hasnt been adressed before. you clearly see some people in this discussion being unaware and learning about it.

[agersant]

Agreed. I had not even considered the potential for racist imagery being brought into Cuphead from its graphical inspirations. I'm glad this thread made me think about the game with a more critical look.

Even though I had a VHS of 40s cartoons when I was a kid, the only thing that springs to mind when thinking about them now is essentially this innocent image. Rose-tinted glasses I guess.

[PixelJunkie]

There needs to be substantial evidence to prove something is trying to belittle an ethnic group legitimately. The game isn't being called racist. The fact is, the developers of the game are being called racists, and that is a serious accusation. Social justice warriors are quick to the call of arms when accusing people of something horrible, but fall back and take absolutely no responsibility when they damage somebody's character without warrant. This needs to stop. We are in a time and age everybody is scared of doing or saying anything in fear they will be called a racist, and that my friends, is called bullying.

People not openly stating racist ideology doesn't mean they aren't racist, it just means they are being quiet. Hawking over anything anyone might find offensive does nothing to combat real racism. Understanding does, and understanding goes out the door once the racist card is pulled out of the deck.

[oahda]

The serious use of "social justice warrior" just invalidated your entire credibility.

I don't think the devs had any racist intentions. But that doesn't mean the material cannot be hurtful whether they meant to or not. And this is where terms like "privilege", scared of them as you may be, really do come into play: they can't see how it's hurtful because it doesn't affect them. And you probably can't because it doesn't affect you either. And so you come as quickly to their defense as "SJW's come calling people racist".

I have absolutely no idea what Cuphead is or why the depictions in it might be racist tho, so I'm not going to argue either way. What I said above is just something I think you should use as a general guideline whenever you end up in a discussion like this. And listening to what the people whom something may cause offense have to say is more important than anything. If you're white then you don't speak for offended black people. If you're cis then you don't speak for offended trans people. You don't know their situation better than they do.

Note: I would not have assumed you didn't know any of this had you not used "SJW", and I wouldn't have said anything probably.

[jamesprimate]

We are in a time and age everybody is scared of doing or saying anything in fear they will be called a racist

bruh, if you are honestly scared of doing or saying anything because when you do people will call you a racist... *then you might actually be a racist*

believe it or not, the vast majority of people go amongst their business throughout the day without being called out for saying or doing racist things, and you can too.... simply by not saying or doing racist things

[Faust06]

I have absolutely no idea what Cuphead is or why the depictions in it might be racist tho, so I'm not going to argue either way.

that doesn't mean the material cannot be hurtful whether they meant to or not.

That's true of anything, no matter what well of inspiration it's drawn from. A question of potential is sort of mundane. Whether it's racist or not is a more substantial question. If all we know -- and all we would ever know-- of the game were to be what's released so far in the form of trailers, I'd say a case for racism would be grasping at straws.

The fact is, the developers of the game are being called racists, and that is a serious accusation.

Uh, by whom exactly?

[oahda]

Obviously I didn't mean potential but substance.

[Faust06]

I mean that it's obvious intent has no bearing on whether a thing is offensive or hurtful (or should be uncontested at least). I don't mean the idea has no value, just that this doesn't actually say anything about Cuphead, which is what's under scrutiny. It reads like an insinuation.

[oahda]

Now it just sounds like you're saying exactly what I said so I dunno what we're talking about anymore. <_>

[Faust06]

Now it just sounds like you're saying exactly what I said so I dunno what we're talking about anymore. <_>

[s0]

no one itt called the devs racist btw