J-Snake
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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2015, 04:50:15 AM » |
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Violence is really only the interpretation of abstract mechanical happening in the game. So you are really just asking for a modified presentation of mechanical happening. But threads like these can still help to shape awareness about that.
I will add Tetris as one of the most abstracted examples of establishing order in random things being thrown at you.
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s0
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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2015, 05:18:10 AM » |
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yeah i keep asking this question everytime a thread like this pops up. what exactly counts as violence? are chess and go violent games, for instance?
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SirNiko
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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2015, 05:48:10 AM » |
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http://firstpersonlover.com/There's also this game. Mechanically it's a bog standard FPS, but the narrative is you're using your tools (Flower shotgun, teddy bear grenade) to calm down angry people then fill them with love by giving them Björn Borg TM brand clothing. It depends on what you consider to be violence.
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halk3n
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« Reply #23 on: August 16, 2015, 08:54:24 AM » |
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yeah i keep asking this question everytime a thread like this pops up. what exactly counts as violence? are chess and go violent games, for instance?
Only in theme/lore.
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Schoq
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« Reply #24 on: August 16, 2015, 09:17:03 AM » |
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Point being, I'd think: can't the same be said about any violent game? How can a mechanic be violent without "theme/lore"
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♡ ♥ make games, not money ♥ ♡
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gimymblert
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« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2015, 09:38:44 AM » |
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Fighting are often management and timing gameplay, however in theme it allow generic arrangement, especially in space, with clear easy to understand themed feedback, and all of that without stretching suspension of disbelief TOO thin. It's efficient.
The goal is to find if there is other mechanics where you can be spammable, relevant, deep and easy to understand.
Recently Crafting seems to have taken this lead
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halk3n
Level 1
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« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2015, 05:36:48 AM » |
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Point being, I'd think: can't the same be said about any violent game? How can a mechanic be violent without "theme/lore"
Exactly. Further to the point: a mechanic can't exist without "theme/lore".
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s0
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« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2015, 06:54:53 AM » |
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yeah i keep asking this question everytime a thread like this pops up. what exactly counts as violence? are chess and go violent games, for instance?
Only in theme/lore. nope. neither of these gams have a "theme" or so called "lore" as such but they're not completely abstract. both are meant to be (crude) simulations of strategy in war. both are based around using aggressive force to conquer your opponent. sounds pretty damn violent to me. im not saying this is a *bad thing*, but if violence is just a theme then what's the point of this thread (and similar threads like it)?
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« Last Edit: August 17, 2015, 07:00:55 AM by Silbereisen »
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halk3n
Level 1
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« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2015, 08:02:06 AM » |
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I meant lore in the sense that the stones are symbolic of said war-strategy. The players acquire the background (war) of the game itself "justifying" the mechanics therein.
You could alter what those stones represent to be non-violent and the mechanics would validate it. It would be boring as fuck, but I think what J-Snake said earlier is pretty sound logic when discerning between "theme" and "mechanics".
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gimymblert
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« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2015, 08:11:13 AM » |
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Even though it's a theme, it's one people have a lot of difficulty breaking from to have compelling generic gameplay, if that's so easy and it's just a theme why do game are so reliant on it? So much that non violent action game often miss the mark in term of tension.
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halk3n
Level 1
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« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2015, 08:19:07 AM » |
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It's gonna sound whack but it began with the proto-"mechanic" of putting a coin in the arcade machine. I call it the "Coin-Op Paradigm" where most games that you speak of are heavily (either consciously or unconsciously) influenced by a success-rate of patterned design philosophies that complement the influence of putting another coin into the machine. It has become increasingly abstract over the years since the early 80's, but the echo is still here.
I think what is more important isn't necessarily the avoidance of violence per say, but HOW violence is treated and what the mechanics are inherently trying to portray in the virtual world.
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s0
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« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2015, 09:49:13 AM » |
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Even though it's a theme, it's one people have a lot of difficulty breaking from to have compelling generic gameplay, if that's so easy and it's just a theme why do game are so reliant on it? So much that non violent action game often miss the mark in term of tension.
because it's more than just a theme i posit that violence is embedded in the design of a SHITLOAD of games (esp action games) to the point that no re-theming is going to change it.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2015, 10:11:48 AM » |
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And then that's my point, "violence" is a convenient mechanic and also I hid the fact that I think that theme is a mechanic (information, direction and feedback). And that's the point that retheming is NOT the way to go, it's just that I found it's so much ingrain and it's so synonymous of game, we have trouble to consider different but as efficient mechanics.
Also conflict don't necessarily translate to violence, there is an overgeneralization that run deep in western culture about that and it kind of misdirect creativity.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2015, 10:20:19 AM » |
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Even though it's a theme, it's one people have a lot of difficulty breaking from to have compelling generic gameplay, if that's so easy and it's just a theme why do game are so reliant on it? Because in general video games are created for gamers like you know them, not mathematicians. Ideally they want an intuitive connection to the world they explore.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2015, 10:35:04 AM » |
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It was a rhetorical question, I'm looking for a replacing theme, not a mathematical abstraction, because those one I can deal.
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J-Snake
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« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2015, 10:47:19 AM » |
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Just thought you might be interested to take a look at this again:
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gimymblert
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« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2015, 11:06:57 AM » |
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why?
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J-Snake
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« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2015, 11:25:37 AM » |
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Here is a middleground, the focus on mechanics and puzzly interactions is evident, the presentation is abstract enough to be only borderline violent. You can go from here both ways for presentation; by pushing the presentation towards realism you will add violence, by changing the presentation to something like Fruit Ninja you remove violence.
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gimymblert
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« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2015, 11:27:47 AM » |
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THEME != presentation
Mario is still violent mechanics
much better and very acute observations
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J-Snake
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« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2015, 11:33:21 AM » |
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Mario is still violent mechanics Mechanics are devoid of violence. Violence is bound to the presentation layer, exactly why Mario is not considered a violent game.
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