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[gimymblert]

It's not late to expend that's how nintendo work, mechanics first, entire world after, midna in tp (who happen to be the central character) was born of a need to have an interesting visual focal point on the wolve (which was created as a mechanic first). So there in that example you have theme (wolf) -> mechanics (scent trails and other) -> visual (visual focal) -> theme (midna) -> mechanic (her power) -> theme (her story)

[gimymblert]

I'm soon free from to the embargo I imposed on myself about diversion game. The sonic game was a diversion which end up soaking all my power out of my main project for 3 years straight. Now My main project is finally define enough, I'll start a new side loose game about all the mechanics from popular action game I like except the action part, and it will be pcg just because ... I hope you like pokemon snap!

[halk3n]

Alright, I have been using "theme" and "lore" interchangeably here and (thanks to Jimym GIMBERT and Silbereisen) I have learnt the error in my ways.

What I mean by lore (in the traditional sense i.e. folklore etc) is the birth of game from a cultural standpoint. Go being an example of some generals using a "game" to conduct efficient strategies and thus creating Go as a result.

Lore = symbolic.

Theme is a mechanic and mechanics (due to lore) imply themes. Lore in the modern day sense, is what I call the "Coin-Op Paradigm". I think this is where "action" inherently related to "violence" comes from. Death is a prime example of this phenomenon. On-rails is another aspect that suggest a lot of twitch-destruction seen in a ton of games today that are not on-rails etc.

Theme = meaningful suggestion.

My biggest concern about violence isn't necessarily violence itself but the way violence is directly incorporated to the mechanics of play. Murder in a chore-like way. Which is just a disguise for invisible point-racking that leads directly back to the Coin-Op Paradigm problem.

a game can exist without a theme.

Yea...no...

[gimymblert]

I don't think you were in error, we just used specific perspective that allow us to deal with the context at end (violence in video games as mechanics). That's why I didn't answered to the first question in early post. It was to provoke thought.


However if thinking you had made an error help you thinking useful stuff why not, cheers!

[J-Snake]

What I mean by lore (in the traditional sense i.e. folklore etc) is the birth of game from a cultural standpoint. Go being an example of some generals using a "game" to conduct efficient strategies and thus creating Go as a result.

If you don't read up its history you wouldn't know that. But you will still be able to play it just fine by its abstract rules, no theme implied at all. Mathematicians are already the proof that you don't need a theme to play a game since the way they approach things is already abstracted from everything irrelevant to the game itself.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

isn't Math a theme?

[J-Snake]

If Math is worth calling a theme then you can build themes upon themes, call everything a theme, and there is not much point in this topic to start with.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

Math includes numbers , geometry ,abstract number symbols etc.... it's in no way abstract abstract.

i need more details on how a game can exist without theme. mathematicians play games using a set of rule that is explained as numbers or geometry for example , which are themes.

just from the definition of theme: a subject of discourse, discussion, meditation, or composition; topic

mathematicians play games around the topic of numbers (geometry ,abstract number infinity etc....)

[J-Snake]

That is not the understanding of theme you usually have for a video game. Players expect a theme that motivates emotional content. Since mechanics are devoid of any emotional content a theme and according representation is attached to the mechanics unlike in math, where a representation of a subject is the subject itself.

That is also why a war theme is completely irrelevant to chess itself, it is just something attached to the game. On a related note the same game can appear more or less violent, just depending on its representation. There is no such thing as "violent mechanics" without the attachment of their representation/theme.

[gimymblert]

You should play the game "lim" and you should learn about graphic design too because you have so small notion of what we can express through abstraction.

[Sik]

. Mechanic-wise it's just a standard top-down shooter, but replacing bullets with water and enemies with flames. Oh, and there isn't anything like a villain, it's all just the result of plain negligence.

Mechanically it's a bog standard FPS, but the narrative is you're using your tools (Flower shotgun, teddy bear grenade) to calm down angry people then fill them with love by giving them Björn Borg^TM brand clothing.

That sounds similar to

, where your "bullets" are food and you have to feed animals until they end up asleep.

[J-Snake]

You should play the game "lim" and you should learn about graphic design too because you have so small notion of what we can express through abstraction.

Aren't you the one who is ignoring what graphics design and other "attached elements" like effects, sound etc. does to a game here? Since a non violent game can be turned into a violent game that way and vice versa. You don't see the irony?

[gimymblert]

I was in art schools so yeah I'm not ignoring it, I'm just trying to point you at stuff without calling you naive and ignorant of graphism but then I just lost that game

You confuse graphism with figuration and seems to think that only figuration is "expressive" which is false. You make similar confusion about theme and seems to think that definition only happen with strict boundaries (they don't).

[J-Snake]

Let's be real, have you learned anything new from this thread? Here is what you got so far (and I argue all of it can be presented in a violent manner aswell):

so basically:
- traversal gameplay
- manipulation/physics gameplay
- action puzzle
- Timing based game
- sport and "work" game
- real time management game (diner dash)

[gimymblert]

I have learn things ion the realm of nuance and how people perceive it and that inform way I see design, in absolute term "no" I didn't learn anything shattering, and discussing with you allow me to perfect some other nuance, so yeah it was worthwile or else I wouldn't engage.

I'm preparing myself for coming back to actually building game as my current project start being define enough to stop conception and starting assembling and construction (even though I still need more experimentation with afro hair rendering), so yeah expect something out of this. Notably because I want to start easy non complicated experimental (to me not necessarily in grand scheme of game design) and still avoid major tropes like violence or no minority represented.

[halk3n]

What I mean by lore (in the traditional sense i.e. folklore etc) is the birth of game from a cultural standpoint. Go being an example of some generals using a "game" to conduct efficient strategies and thus creating Go as a result.

If you don't read up its history you wouldn't know that.

You don't have to. The design is symbolic enough to suggest it's theme. Black and white beads represent conflict. Goal orientation represents the relinquishing of that conflict. The opposing beads are at war. That is the power of lore.

But you will still be able to play it just fine by its abstract rules, no theme implied at all.

Humans are narrative-based creatures. Our mind's eye constructs meaning and theme where there is a need to fill a space within the magic circle.

Mathematicians are already the proof that you don't need a theme to play a game since the way they approach things is already abstracted from everything irrelevant to the game itself.

I'm unsure by what you mean by this. Mathematics in the realm of arts is by nature thematic and meaningful. The Quadrivium arts (now considered evil and absurd) involved four pillars of numbers and space that underlies meaning etc.

Dice is the best example of using number values to co-ordinate meaning (i.e. geomancy).

[J-Snake]

What I mean by lore (in the traditional sense i.e. folklore etc) is the birth of game from a cultural standpoint. Go being an example of some generals using a "game" to conduct efficient strategies and thus creating Go as a result.

If you don't read up its history you wouldn't know that.

You don't have to. The design is symbolic enough to suggest it's theme. Black and white beads represent conflict. Goal orientation represents the relinquishing of that conflict. The opposing beads are at war. That is the power of lore.

It is still only your interpretation. War implies competition. But competition doesn't imply war. Interpretation is only a tool for us to compensate for the lack of abstract understanding. There is a game beyond your interpretation.

[FNKVSSL]

Interpretation is only a tool for us to compensate for the lack of abstract understanding. There is a game beyond your interpretation.

I might be confused, are you saying it's possible for Chess (or any game) to exist without thematic interpretation having come into play at some level? How would you communicate the rules of the game without falling back on language that suggests a theme? "White and black touch, one kills/eats/removes the other"- you could whitewash the verb indefinitely and still never escape the notion of conflict, it's intrinsic to the very concept of a game.

Also not sure if the term "abstract" has any real value in a discussion. Nothing in reality is abstract, the word just denotes a lack of understanding when the point of discussion is to correct that

[Schoq]

I'm reminded of saturated dreamers where you shoot creatures to fill a friend meter, to befriend them

iirc

[J-Snake]

I might be confused, are you saying it's possible for Chess (or any game) to exist without thematic interpretation having come into play at some level? How would you communicate the rules of the game without falling back on language that suggests a theme?

A computer can play chess without the notion of a theme. The notion of a theme would add no benefit to the computer because there is no information to be drawn from it for the game itself. May be that will give you a hint.