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[Jalapenosbud]

JUMP N SHOOT PEW PEW

Build 07-03-2016

Link to build http://jalapenosbud.itch.io/factory-18 (9 mb, 5-15 min playtime)

CHANGELOG

-keybinds should be 100% configurable now and any controller should work
-fixed bats so they stop right after they've hit you
-fixed slashing guy so he stops before he hits you
-tweaked the boss so theres abit more "action" :D

-and some more stuff i cant remember

That's it
Any feedback is welcome and appreciated.
Especially feedback on:
- How are the levels?
   - are they too short or too long?
- Is the boss too easy or too hard
- Any bugs with the enemies, are they too easy or too hard?
- How are the controls, too floaty or too "precise"?

[Quicksand-S]

Misc. Observations and Thoughts

-I found the animation a bit awkward-looking. It's too fast for the movement speed and the legs and arm just look floppy rather than swinging back and forth nicely.

-Walking up ramps is a lot slower, but the animation stays the same speed. Ramps themselves work quite well, though. Personally, I would recommend not using 45-degree angles for ramps unless you plan to make separate animations for walking on them, since it never looks great when a character is mostly floating in mid-air and only their toe is on the ramp.

-It's just personal preference, but in games where there's no mouse control, I much prefer using the arrow keys over WASD. Also note that people with other keyboard styles, like AZERTY, won't be able to play comfortably.

-"Lives" seems more like a health counter.

-I expected the key to be used automatically, or used with W. It was strange to have to throw the key at the door.

-Ground that you can jump up through and ground that you can't probably shouldn't look the same.

-In my browser, I see a lot of thin grey lines between background tiles.

-Ninja stars sometimes stop at walls but usually don't.

-It might be a good idea to make ninja stars take on the player's velocity, so the range doesn't feel so short if you shoot while moving. I'm not 100% sure about this suggestion, though.

-If I throw the key, it slides really far and it doesn't give me the "W" prompt when I go to pick it up.


To answer your actual questions:

Are enemies too weak? - I think they have far too much health for such simple enemies. There's no real challenge to fighting them, so it's just tedious. I'd say either reduce their health and add more of them, or make them trickier to fight against.

Is there too little happening? - Yeah. Again, there's no challenge and nothing really interesting. If you want to have areas without enemies, maybe make slightly interesting platforming, with traps or puzzles to give the player something to deal with.

Are levels too long and boring, or do they fit the "theme"? - I thought they were a good length, but I wish there was more enjoyment to be found in them. I really felt like you just hadn't added the enemies, decor, dangers, etc. yet, but this question makes me think that you planned to leave the levels this empty.

Is the music choice bad? - That depends on what you mean. I like the music, but it doesn't really suit the combat/action sections.

[Jalapenosbud]

Hey there! I read your feedback and i really appreciate you taking your time to play my game and write this, it means alot!
Gives me more incentive to improve.

-I found the animation a bit awkward-looking. It's too fast for the movement speed and the legs and arm just look floppy rather than swinging back and forth nicely.

Yea i should probably have mentioned that on before hand, im not an artist but a programmer, so its just placeholder art. And yea, it definitely looks weird!

-Walking up ramps is a lot slower, but the animation stays the same speed. Ramps themselves work quite well, though. Personally, I would recommend not using 45-degree angles for ramps unless you plan to make separate animations for walking on them, since it never looks great when a character is mostly floating in mid-air and only their toe is on the ramp.

Yea that definitely looks weird too, i'm not planning on having 45 degree slopes in the final game, and again, this is an art issue.

-It's just personal preference, but in games where there's no mouse control, I much prefer using the arrow keys over WASD. Also note that people with other keyboard styles, like AZERTY, won't be able to play comfortably.

This is definitely something i need more feedback on, or have an option to map input, as i've heard different things.

-I expected the key to be used automatically, or used with W. It was strange to have to throw the key at the door.

Alright ill change that, so its more intuitive to just walk up and it unlocks.

-In my browser, I see a lot of thin grey lines between background tiles.

Yep, some background tiles arent aligned properly. I will change that too.

-Ground that you can jump up through and ground that you can't probably shouldn't look the same.

Definitely! So it's easier to see what's what.

-Ninja stars sometimes stop at walls but usually don't.

Hmm thats weird, they should be on the layer that collides with the wall and makes them disappear, i will look into that.

-It might be a good idea to make ninja stars take on the player's velocity, so the range doesn't feel so short if you shoot while moving. I'm not 100% sure about this suggestion, though.

I'm not 100% sure about this, but i could give it a try. I just initially wanted them to be at same range as the "frog's" tongue lash, so you have to get close with it, and it would feel more challenging.

Are enemies too weak? - I think they have far too much health for such simple enemies. There's no real challenge to fighting them, so it's just tedious. I'd say either reduce their health and add more of them, or make them trickier to fight against.

Alright, i will reduce their hp, make more of them and more challenging! (hopefully i can do that)

Is there too little happening? - Yeah. Again, there's no challenge and nothing really interesting. If you want to have areas without enemies, maybe make slightly interesting platforming, with traps or puzzles to give the player something to deal with.

Alright, ill have that in mind when i reiterate. I wanted to go for a SNES super metroid style, with the atmosphere leading the game, i guess that's hard without proper art and music though :X

Are levels too long and boring, or do they fit the "theme"? - I thought they were a good length, but I wish there was more enjoyment to be found in them. I really felt like you just hadn't added the enemies, decor, dangers, etc. yet, but this question makes me think that you planned to leave the levels this empty.

I'm glad you found the levels appropriate length. I will add more enemies and stuff in there. It was sorta planned as i said before with the super metroid style, but i probably need some more experience before i can go that route

Is the music choice bad? - That depends on what you mean. I like the music, but it doesn't really suit the combat/action sections.

Alright, it was something i picked off incompetech dot com, its supposed to be dark and ambient, but ill have some zone trigger that's more "actiony" for the fight areas i guess.

Again. Thanks alot for taking your time to write all this and play my game. It's appreciated!

[Quicksand-S]

I wanted to go for a SNES super metroid style, with the atmosphere leading the game, i guess that's hard without proper art and music though :X

Sounds good. Super Metroid also put creatures in a lot of places in order to make otherwise simple platforming more interesting. The proper placement of creatures can sometimes also make parts of levels seem more like their habitats, which can add to the atmosphere.

[codejoy]

I understand this is an alpha build, and it looks like while it is unity based you opted to build out your own physics engine or something to that effect.  That is to say it feels pretty good.  I noticed the obvious bugs with an alpha but technically you have a good start here.  Enemy designs always are interesting to me and I noticed these had states and what not so more telegraphing of enemies actions is needed (And with art that will come).   

Level length was good, but yes not much going on, not enough enemies and they had WAY too much health.

[Jalapenosbud]

I understand this is an alpha build, and it looks like while it is unity based you opted to build out your own physics engine or something to that effect.  That is to say it feels pretty good.  I noticed the obvious bugs with an alpha but technically you have a good start here.  Enemy designs always are interesting to me and I noticed these had states and what not so more telegraphing of enemies actions is needed (And with art that will come).    

Level length was good, but yes not much going on, not enough enemies and they had WAY too much health.

Hey! I take it from your feedback that you tried my alpha, and i wanna say thanks for that and thanks for writing some feedback to me
Yes it is indeed an alpha build, or just a more "raw" prototype to try out stuff in, and to get something out there i can get feedback on and improve on.

Yea it is unity based, but im using some platform controls made by a guy called sebastian lague. He has a youtube tutorial on how to implement platform controls, which feels pretty damn good indeed! so i'm glad you like the decision i took

I noticed the obvious bugs with an alpha but technically you have a good start here.

Yea its riddled with bugs atm, but im working on fixing those And thanks alot! Those words means alot to me.

Enemy designs always are interesting to me and I noticed these had states and what not so more telegraphing of enemies actions is needed (And with art that will come).

If you want abit more "technical" side to it, then im actually not using states in form of enums, but a timer to decide when stuff should go off, so i guess that counts as states too in its form actually xD

But yes telegraphing is needed alot (i guess you mean some sort of "feedback" to tell when stuff is happening, if it jumps, or charges or something). I tried to do it with a timer, but that was abit off and gave the opposite effect, so i'm trying to come up with a new idea of how to do it.

Level length was good, but yes not much going on, not enough enemies and they had WAY too much health.

Glad you like the level length. But yea not much is going on. And regarding enemies hehe, yea i was like when i played it i just spammed the throw button so they died quite fast, so i wanted to add a "challenge" to it. But i guess they're too much.

So now i'm trying to do alot more enemies, with less hp. Same level length. And some more interesting enemies, or just a few more to fight, which im implementing atm.

Enemies im working on:
-wallhopping enemy that also shoots
-enemy that drops from the ceiling
-making the jumping enemies shoot when you stand below them
-making the charging enemy charge more frequently
-a flying enemy that has a "resting spot" on the ceiling, drops down to chase you and returns to its resting spot when it hits you or when 3 seconds has passed

Again, thanks for taking your time to write some feedback and playing the game

[Jalapenosbud]

New build up in OP!

[yokcos700]

I get to the room with the blue blocks appearing and disappearing. That seems to be the end of the game thus far.

The controls seem slow and inconvenient. There almost seems to be a delay between me pressing a button, and my character reacting. This makes precision platforming very frustrating.
Often times, I hit K and no shuriken comes out. I think it's because they're still on cooldown. If it is, then cooldown probably should be shorter.
Some enemies have a black aura around them. I have no idea what this aura does.
The enemy variety is fantastic. I'm liking that all the enemies take different tactics to defeat.

I like it. It's obviously a bit rough around the edges, but the great variety there is in enemies means that you've already got a lot more going for you than a lot of other platformers.

[Jalapenosbud]

hey yokcos700 and thanks for trying out the "alpha/demo" version of the game

I get to the room with the blue blocks appearing and disappearing. That seems to be the end of the game thus far.

That's right, im planning on adding a boss after u reach the end of the blocks, which im working on atm, to get the AI right.
Btw what did you think of the blue blocks? hows the timing, is it too fast, too slow, just right or is it just totally screwed up?

The controls seem slow and inconvenient. There almost seems to be a delay between me pressing a button, and my character reacting. This makes precision platforming very frustrating.

Hmm i'm sorry to hear that. I will try to notice it and tweak it abit. By try to notice i mean that, i use the controls so much ive gotten used to it lol. But i'll see what i can do to make them more responsive.

Often times, I hit K and no shuriken comes out. I think it's because they're still on cooldown. If it is, then cooldown probably should be shorter.

Yea i need to tweak the cooldown, it will be reduced in the next build of the game, along with a new feature (maybe).

Some enemies have a black aura around them. I have no idea what this aura does.

It's a bit buggy lol, but basically if you stand inside it you're supposed to take damage xD will fix that too.

The enemy variety is fantastic. I'm liking that all the enemies take different tactics to defeat.

Thanks! that means alot to me as thats what ive been trying to go for, a variety, a mix of megaman enemies and super metroid enemies

I like it. It's obviously a bit rough around the edges, but the great variety there is in enemies means that you've already got a lot more going for you than a lot of other platformers.

Thanks again i love getting feedback in any form, so its greatly appreciated! Yea its a bit rough atm, im almost at the polish face i reckon, after finishing the AI and doing alot of levels, something thats manageable
Thanks for taking your time to play it and write a post!

[Quicksand-S]

yokcos700 covered most of what I would've said.

I really liked the enemies that jumped between walls. If they slide down through a partially-solid floor, though, then they have a lot of trouble when they hit the ground. It might also make sense to have them slide down to the player's altitude whenever it makes sense. As they are now, they were incredibly easy to avoid.

One of the patrolling enemies with an aura got stuck against a wall on the right side of its patrol.

A couple of times, I walked around inside the partially-solid platforms (that you can jump/drop through), which was really weird. I'm not entirely sure how to reproduce the issue, but it happened at least two or three times.

I thought the blue blocks were fine. It was a bit weird to get up near the top and then not have anywhere to go for a few seconds, but it wasn't too bad.

My biggest problem with the game at this point is just the pacing. I do really like the changes you've made (as yokcos700 said, the enemy variety is great), but the placement of enemies and the limited ability to deal with them just meant that I had to advance and retreat over and over and over in almost every area (or just avoid enemies altogether when possible).

If I could aim up, there'd probably be no issue. If "bats" only had 1hp, that would've maybe solved the problem too, because I could do fancy jumping-and-shooting maneuvers without having to retreat. The areas with platforms arranged as stairs were the worst because I had to keep jumping up to get the "bats" to chase me and then killing them on the way back down. I want to move forward, not stay in the same room for ages.

[Jalapenosbud]

I really liked the enemies that jumped between walls. If they slide down through a partially-solid floor, though, then they have a lot of trouble when they hit the ground. It might also make sense to have them slide down to the player's altitude whenever it makes sense. As they are now, they were incredibly easy to avoid.

I'm glad you liked them hmm well atm they are designed to jump when player is within a certain range, and they start on solid ground and then jump up like 40 units, then they start to "jump" back down. Which really is falling now cause the jump mechanic is abit weird.
Hmm what do you mean exactly with "slide down to the players altitude whenever it makes sense"? that they should slide down when the player is near and keep at the players range or? And okay, i will try to work on them so they're not that easily avoidable.

One of the patrolling enemies with an aura got stuck against a wall on the right side of its patrol.

yea i will fix that too

A couple of times, I walked around inside the partially-solid platforms (that you can jump/drop through), which was really weird. I'm not entirely sure how to reproduce the issue, but it happened at least two or three times.

Yea it has something to do with the algorithm, since its a custom made platform controller, i'd have to make a workaround for this. It is something im working on

I thought the blue blocks were fine. It was a bit weird to get up near the top and then not have anywhere to go for a few seconds, but it wasn't too bad.

alright cool! glad to hear that. Hmm alright, i will add some more to it

My biggest problem with the game at this point is just the pacing. I do really like the changes you've made (as yokcos700 said, the enemy variety is great), but the placement of enemies and the limited ability to deal with them just meant that I had to advance and retreat over and over and over in almost every area (or just avoid enemies altogether when possible).

Glad you like the changes, i was abit unsure if they were good or not, same with the many enemies and their placement. But i will work on the pacing

If I could aim up, there'd probably be no issue. If "bats" only had 1hp, that would've maybe solved the problem too, because I could do fancy jumping-and-shooting maneuvers without having to retreat. The areas with platforms arranged as stairs were the worst because I had to keep jumping up to get the "bats" to chase me and then killing them on the way back down. I want to move forward, not stay in the same room for ages.

Ah yea an upwards shot, now you mention it, it was something i wanted to implement but forgot about it again, since i got carried away by other stuff. But i will write it down now.
Ah yea that's kinda annoying, i found it as a challenge, but i guess it can be tedius to do, combined with the slow ninja throw cooldown.

Thanks alot for ur feedback, i value it, as it gives me more incentive to work on the game as i know there's someone willing to play it.

Btw i have some stuff im thinking about implementing i would like some feedback on:

-having a slowmo-triple-shot that shoots straight upwards-diagonally, straight forward and downwards diagonally infront of the player. As it is now in the development build, if you hit the fire key between next cooldown timer and a shorter timer, it starts a counter that counts to 3 and when it hits 3 it shoots three stars as described before.

-in addition to the slow-mo shot, have an indicator that shows when you can do a slowmo-triple-shot

-add a "satchel" charge-like ability, that when you throw it at the enemy, the enemy flees and goes to the nearest enemy, attaches to that and explodes everyone near it.

What do you guys think about that?

[Quicksand-S]

Hmm what do you mean exactly with "slide down to the players altitude whenever it makes sense"?

Making my way up the vertical, Super-Metroid-escape-tunnel sort of area, they just jumped back and forth above me. If they had slid down just a bit further (based on my location) then they would've actually been a threat. You'd just have to watch out so they don't slide down through the ground when they attempt to do that.

-having a slowmo-triple-shot that shoots straight upwards-diagonally, straight forward and downwards diagonally infront of the player. As it is now in the development build, if you hit the fire key between next cooldown timer and a shorter timer, it starts a counter that counts to 3 and when it hits 3 it shoots three stars as described before.

I'm not a huge fan of slow-mo unless the combat is really fast-paced and tough. I also haven't seen any situations where an attack like that would have been useful (especially the bottom throwing star, since I never really had any enemies below me).

-add a "satchel" charge-like ability, that when you throw it at the enemy, the enemy flees and goes to the nearest enemy, attaches to that and explodes everyone near it.

Could be fun, but the enemies aren't challenging enough to really require it yet.

[Jalapenosbud]

Making my way up the vertical, Super-Metroid-escape-tunnel sort of area, they just jumped back and forth above me. If they had slid down just a bit further (based on my location) then they would've actually been a threat. You'd just have to watch out so they don't slide down through the ground when they attempt to do that.

Got it, i will re-play super metroid a couple of times tomorrow and see how they work, to get it right. I'm super tired right now.

I'm not a huge fan of slow-mo unless the combat is really fast-paced and tough. I also haven't seen any situations where an attack like that would have been useful (especially the bottom throwing star, since I never really had any enemies below me).

hmm maybe if i upped the speed of the ninja stars and made more enemies come at you? and like the downwards star could be used when jump or something, idk But yea, i guess slow mo is more used to get an overview of the situation and then own everything from there.

Could be fun, but the enemies aren't challenging enough to really require it yet.

true what would add to make them more challenging? just so i have an idea of what to work with

[Quicksand-S]

Got it, i will re-play super metroid a couple of times tomorrow and see how they work, to get it right. I'm super tired right now.

Well, in Super Metroid the climbed up and down a bit before jumping and could also shoot, so that was a very different situation.

hmm maybe if i upped the speed of the ninja stars and made more enemies come at you? and like the downwards star could be used when jump or something, idk

You'd probably have to make the character a lot faster for that (which I'd already like to see happen, anyway).

what would add to make them more challenging? just so i have an idea of what to work with

Random thoughts:

-Bats could potentially attack again, even while retreating, if you get too close or they get hit by a ninja star.
-Some enemies could activate others nearby if you don't take them out fast enough (or things like bats could just swarm you all at once no matter how fast you are, but would need a lot less health in that case).
-The enemies with the large auras could maybe try to block off certain areas and dash toward you if they see you (I just shot them from far away so they didn't even get near).
-Maybe some enemies should have forward-facing shields or something, so you have to get around behind them and attack before they turn.
-Weak-spots for some enemies might be nice. I don't necessarily mean permanent weak spots (although that'd work too), but maybe some that are only exposed for a brief time so players have to react quickly.
-Tall enemies that can only be hit in the head require a little bit more accuracy than ones you can just stand and shoot at.

In general, I think it's mostly a matter of making enemies that cause the player to behave differently and that react to the player in some way. It doesn't even have to be realistic hearing/sight. Even Pac-Man had the ghosts behave differently depending on the player's position.

[Jalapenosbud]

Well, in Super Metroid the climbed up and down a bit before jumping and could also shoot, so that was a very different situation.

I actually made the walljumping enemy able to shoot, but i guess it jumps too fast to notice :X

You'd probably have to make the character a lot faster for that (which I'd already like to see happen, anyway).

do you think it runs too slow as it is?

Random thoughts

I like it!

In general, I think it's mostly a matter of making enemies that cause the player to behave differently and that react to the player in some way. It doesn't even have to be realistic hearing/sight. Even Pac-Man had the ghosts behave differently depending on the player's position.

Definitely, it makes for a more exciting game.

[Quicksand-S]

You'd probably have to make the character a lot faster for that (which I'd already like to see happen, anyway).

do you think it runs too slow as it is?

It's not too bad (although the running animation is much, much too fast for the movement speed). I think my main movement-related issue is that, since so many enemies require jumping and shooting, I feel like I should be able to maneuver more quickly while in the air.

A related thing I'd personally love to see, but I can understand if you don't implement it, is for the character to continue to face one direction even as they move backward. It could be that players hold Shift or something to lock their aiming direction so they can walk/jump backward, or maybe when you jump your aiming direction is locked until you hit the ground again. That would make dealing with high-up enemies slightly less tedious.

I'd also recommend playing through the game without attacking any enemies. It seems like it's probably very possible at the moment, which probably isn't ideal if you're going to be spending a lot of time making cool enemy behaviors.

[Jalapenosbud]

It's not too bad (although the running animation is much, much too fast for the movement speed). I think my main movement-related issue is that, since so many enemies require jumping and shooting, I feel like I should be able to maneuver more quickly while in the air.

i tried upping the meter or units per second speed by 4, and it feels alot better actually. But do you mean like there should be more gravity so the character falls to the ground quicker? or just make it more "floaty" so theres more air time. And yea im waiting with fixing the animation untill i start doing art for the game.

A related thing I'd personally love to see, but I can understand if you don't implement it, is for the character to continue to face one direction even as they move backward. It could be that players hold Shift or something to lock their aiming direction so they can walk/jump backward, or maybe when you jump your aiming direction is locked until you hit the ground again. That would make dealing with high-up enemies slightly less tedious.

Good suggestions. Im actually thinking of doing the "hold shift to lock side aim" thing, as it would make sense so you dont have to flip in the air when you have to shoot forward.

I'd also recommend playing through the game without attacking any enemies. It seems like it's probably very possible at the moment, which probably isn't ideal if you're going to be spending a lot of time making cool enemy behaviors.

Good idea. And i just tried it and you're right, it's possible to run through the game without attacking anything. I would probably have to make the "corridors" more narrow or stuff like that, so you're forced to fight the enemies. Or just redo the level completely

[Quicksand-S]

do you mean like there should be more gravity so the character falls to the ground quicker? or just make it more "floaty" so theres more air time.

I actually like the current gravity, but it might be worth adjusting depending on what sort of feeling you want your game to have. The main issue with floatiness, I think, is just that it makes dodging enemy projectiles harder.

Oh yeah, on the subject of projectiles, last time I played I saw a bat pressing down on a bullet that passed under it. It was a bit weird-looking. Maybe enemies should destroy any projectiles they run into that aren't from the player.

I would probably have to make the "corridors" more narrow or stuff like that, so you're forced to fight the enemies.

Maybe not. If bats had less health, you could probably have them move more quickly toward the player without causing too much frustration. If the auras around the ground enemies worked, they'd probably have to be dealt with somehow. I don't think it's a problem if players can get by a few enemies without fighting, just if they can completely ignore everything.

[Jalapenosbud]

I actually like the current gravity, but it might be worth adjusting depending on what sort of feeling you want your game to have.

True true, i like it too actually. I think ill just go for as it is atm.

Maybe not. If bats had less health, you could probably have them move more quickly toward the player without causing too much frustration. If the auras around the ground enemies worked, they'd probably have to be dealt with somehow. I don't think it's a problem if players can get by a few enemies without fighting, just if they can completely ignore everything.

Hey btw, i updated my develeopment log with some updates on fixes you suggested, they are quite good, ill upload a new build once i have made the boss AI.

[Jalapenosbud]

New build! 20th september 2015.
Link in OP and also some small fixes, i can't remember them all from last build since its been a while, slacky i know :X