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[os47]

Hi,

I've been asking this question of many forums.

I would like to know from your experience if you guys have played any games that tackle the sensitive issue of racism. I mean the kind that has something to say on the topic and makes you think. I am not referring to racist videogames like "Ethnic Cleansing" but games in which racism is a part of the narrative. It doesnt even have to be a whole game. It could be a scene or subplot or quest or some dialogue that hints at a bigger picture . The obvious ones are the elder scrolls games and dragon age.

 

I'm in game design school and I'm doing this research for a project.

[yeahjim]

There are a bajillion indie games written by devs who fictionalize their own victimization and marginalization. Racism is a side effect of the human desire to create groups and determine patterns, and is exacerbated by cynical manipulation from the ruling class. A game that makes you seem empathy not only for the oppressed, but the oppressors, both victims of human nature, would be neat.

[gimymblert]

Directly tackling there is:
- the train by brenda romero
- this http://boingboing.net/2015/08/05/carry-the-frustration-of-injus.html
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom:_The_Underground_Railroad

After that there is many game that don't tackle it directly but by proxies (generally a form of covert racism that generally erase the experience of minority and putting white people at the place with non equivalent experience scene, using twisted culture tropes of minority to depict villainy or bad value).

Most game are closet racist BTW such as the last of us (all black character dies and are put in a place either of menace or distrust while redeeming whiet people with family even psychopath like David), or naively like re5 (they studies western media to find motif for their game).

[Schoq]

A game that makes you seem empathy not only for the oppressed, but the oppressors

Civilization?

[gimymblert]

There are a bajillion indie games written by devs who fictionalize their own victimization and marginalization. Racism is a side effect of the human desire to create groups and determine patterns, and is exacerbated by cynical manipulation from the ruling class. A game that makes you seem empathy not only for the oppressed, but the oppressors, both victims of human nature, would be neat.

That's literally every game out there where the main character is an asshole, it's a way to say we are not so bad after all, always involve the opprossed turn to be like the oppressor really (see bioshock infinite for a superb case, the last of us is exactly that in a more covert way).

[yeahjim]

There are a bajillion indie games written by devs who fictionalize their own victimization and marginalization. Racism is a side effect of the human desire to create groups and determine patterns, and is exacerbated by cynical manipulation from the ruling class. A game that makes you seem empathy not only for the oppressed, but the oppressors, both victims of human nature, would be neat.

That's literally every game out there where the main character is an asshole, it's a way to say we are not so bad after all, always involve the opprossed turn to be like the oppressor really (see bioshock infinite for a superb case, the last of us is exactly that in a more covert way).

Not sure what you are pointing to in the Last of Us, but either way I think you might be conflating my call for empathy with the tendency to promote false equivalency as a way of ensuring that no one gets their beliefs challenged. Jesus, I almost threw up while typing that. Do you guys seriously talk about this all the time?

[gimymblert]

I'm pointing at how game with the same idea in the current game market, I didn't say anything about you specifically or comment on your call, just pointing at how this specific tropes is handle in current games. I mean seriously re read, it's not a critic of you or what you said, I used it to highlight a situation.

But the way games handle minority and specifically black is truly horrifying (watchdog being a big offender). It's similar in hollywood.

Also none of the game I presented is about blaming anyone, nor the oppressor, they focus on highlighting the system of oppression and its systemic meaning through direct experience of its effect.

[s0]

bioshock infinite is literally the worst. the message is "both sides use violence so theyre both equally bad mmmkay and i the player get to feel smug about being apathetic"

[yeahjim]

Right, that's why I made the (apparently false) assumption.

[s0]

idk, i didn't read any of the other posts very carefully. i just wanted to diss binf.

[JWK5]

The Elder Scrolls games (primarily Skyrim, Oblivion, and Morrowind) has a fairly disjointed approach to it. Slavers and slavery is pretty prolific through the games, as well as general discrimination against its various races depending on where you are and who you are talking to. Unfortunately, they only really take it as far as a couple dozen characters here and there complaining about it one way or the other and whether you aid the slavers or fight against them the results are the same, the slaves just stand their in their cells for all eternity (maybe they are institutionalized?). The Dragon Age games have a similar disjointed approach, but tend to work it more into the theme and story of the game than the Elder Scrolls games do.

On one hand it is interesting because they kind of shift the themes of prejudice from inter-human to inter-species so it is presenting it to the player from a more abstract position which leaves the player to draw the parallels themselves. On the other hand, it only loosely says anything about real-world prejudices so it is not really much of a commentary on the matter and there is always the possibility that the abstract nature of it causes the player to draw the wrong parallels.

[s0]

On one hand it is interesting because they kind of shift the themes of prejudice from inter-human to inter-species so it presenting it to the player from a more abstract position which leave the player to draw parallels themselves. On the other hand, it only loosely says anything about real-world prejudices so it is not really much of a commentary on the matter, and there is always the possibility that the abstract nature of it causes the player to draw the wrong parallels.

that sounds like 99% of high fantasy to me tbh

the witcher is a little more interesting because it makes racism an actual theme rather than just hinting at it. the treatment of non-humans in that gam is also very obviously based on the history of the polish jews.

[s0]

btw isn't it kinda mind boggling how there are 49450945045 games about world war 2 yet almost none of them mention racism at all? literally the only game i know that does is valkyria chronicles and that's animu fantasy ww2.

i mean sure there's brenda brathwaite's "train". but there doesn't seem to be a middle ground between that and focusing exclusively on the strategic aspect of war, and making the nazis either generic baddies or 1 of several equal sides you can pick. what's up with that?

[gimymblert]

You didn't know WW2 game and movie are there to reinforce the notion that US liberated people with their awesome sidekick like britain etc ...

In fact it it wasn't for USSR we would be fuck, but hey cold war, communist fear, dictatorship! Thank god they have invented human right to have a moral high ground to justify rewriting history

[s0]

You didn't know WW2 game and movie are there to reinforce the notion that US liberated people with their awesome sidekick like britain etc ...

(i know, that's what im trying to get at)

or at least it's true for the majority of american ww2 movies. the reason it's even more prevalent in videogames is that game devs just can't stop lazily copying hollywood.

[JWK5]

There are sadly few video games that really present violent conflicts as a tragedy at all. Really looking at it, most video games featuring violent conflict as a theme are rife with a certain prejudiced and xenophobic undertone in that the enemy is almost always markedly "different" from whatever or whoever the player and their allies are (and what they supposedly represent) and the enemy is only to be considered an obstacle to be destroyed, nothing more. I could kind of see it if maybe we are talking undead or some other mindless abominations or something, but more often than not the enemies are supposedly sentient beings often with some implied culture of their own. It drives home that notion that "foreign = bad, familiar = good". It is less noticeable with older games, but the more "realistic" games get graphically the more it really sets in.

I think that highlights what I really liked about Shadow of the Colossus, it is a violent game that starts out making you think you are on some noble quest you'll accomplish through violent "good deeds" with the early few colossus even having this epic music going on, but as you slay each you start to put two and two together and realize you are actually doing something very sinister and cruel and the music of each colossus is getting more and more somber or eerie. You start to feel less and less sure about what your actions really mean and can even feel bad for the enemies you are slaying.

[Cobralad]

that video can be useful for your research

[Elsaess]

I would like to see more games about WW2 tackle racism.

Other things games about WW2 could tackle:
- the sterilisation of deaf people.
- the execution of people diagnosed with schizophrenia, who Steve Silberman says in his new book Neurotribes would now be diagnosed with autism.

I see what you mean about The Last of Us, Jimym GIMBERT. Riley and Marlene are both the sort of 'tough black woman'. It's a more complex portrayal than that, obviously, having played the full game and DLC, but it does look like this is the jumping off point for these characters.

[SPOILERS FOR THE LAST OF US]


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Are Henry and Sam a racist portrayal?

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[/END SPOILERS]

Shadowrun: Dragonfall at least portrays Turkish-Germans. I'm not far enough in to really comment.

[s0]

disabled people in general were mass murdered in nazi germany in so called "euthanasia clinics". but yeah i would be happy if games at least did the "obvious" thing atm.

[gimymblert]

It's not just isolate character situation, it's a pattern in the last of us, how each character repeat a pattern, they all dies they are confrontational and they are shown as suspicious. Henry rob the childhood of sam (teh scene with the robot), marlene "eat children" (same pattern in binf) and riley (automatically proefficient with gun) lure the innocent ellie (she refuse at first) and is punish. Whenever there is a black person the tone is negative (ellie say "your people" to riley at some point, the first contact with henry and sam or with marlene) contrast to david who is a psychopath but successfully took care of his community (which is emphasize multiple time) and presented first as a brave person (ie have a narrative benefit of the doubt and a justification), basically the game make us feel that human are a bigger threat than the "plague", yet most of those human are minority and have some mockery attach to them (the scene with the gay porn, the bashing of "feminine" values when the game comment on poster). The game took care to really build the giraffe pattern along the game, so it's okay to assume all the other pattern has been thought out too, which make the game even more insensitive.