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[yeahjim]

Mmm hmm, mm hmm... and tell me what you see here?

http://theinkblot.com

[gimymblert]

Mmm hmm, mm hmm... and tell me what you see here?

http://theinkblot.com

funny, now given you are very knowledgable in game cite me one character that is a honorable princess every one to protect, black people with the warmth of their family as background

[yeahjim]

Oops, sorry Jimym, I missed this post.

If I understand you correctly, you'd like me to point you toward a black princess Zelda, who (I think you are saying) is loved by those around them, is viewed as a Hearth Mother / Earth Sister archetype rather than a Sexy Mysterious Other type.

Hmm, does Clementine from The Walking Dead game count? Maybe Storm in one of the seven trillion X-men games? I do see your point.

That said, this hypothetical character doesn't speak to the reality of being black in the USA. Like it or not, in storytelling everything is code. This is how it SHOULD be as long as we are using the code intentionally. Having someone in a game be black, then take away the differentiating social factors of blackness, maybe does a disservice to the experience of being black (assuming this game exists within some flavor of our reality.) And in fantasy worlds, you are absolutely right - there should be more. Way way more.

I was just speaking to the one example you brought up in The Last of Us, not the trend as a whole. Marlene is only the bad guy in that game if Joel is the good guy. And he isn't. Conventions and assumptions are turned on their head - the code is intentional and effective I think.

[s0]

sazh from final fantasy 13

[gimymblert]

Oops, sorry Jimym, I missed this post.

If I understand you correctly, you'd like me to point you toward a black princess Zelda, who (I think you are saying) is loved by those around them, is viewed as a Hearth Mother / Earth Sister archetype rather than a Sexy Mysterious Other type.

Hmm, does Clementine from The Walking Dead game count? Maybe Storm in one of the seven trillion X-men games? I do see your point.

That said, this hypothetical character doesn't speak to the reality of being black in the USA. Like it or not, in storytelling everything is code. This is how it SHOULD be as long as we are using the code intentionally. Having someone in a game be black, then take away the differentiating social factors of blackness, maybe does a disservice to the experience of being black (assuming this game exists within some flavor of our reality.) And in fantasy worlds, you are absolutely right - there should be more. Way way more.

I was just speaking to the one example you brought up in The Last of Us, not the trend as a whole. Marlene is only the bad guy in that game if Joel is the good guy. And he isn't. Conventions and assumptions are turned on their head - the code is intentional and effective I think.

Wow really WOW

Tell me what's the reality of being white in america?
Tell me what's the reality of being black in america?

How does game reflect on what it is to be white in america?
What about non american?
Do you realize not all the audience is american either? That game (and american media) are sold to the world where significant profit also happen?
How does upholding racist code help storytelling?

 

[ProgramGamer]

Yeah, I agree with Jimym, that was a really poor thought out point. Maybe think about it for a while, sleep on it too. Then come back to us when you've figured out why that was such a bad thing.

[yeahjim]

Pretty rude and very presumptuous, and again with the pigeonholing, again with deliberate misreads. But if I'm being asked to leave, I'll go - I'm a newcomer here and you have a right to this community.

[ProgramGamer]

I didn't mean that as a "leave this community" message, I was just talking about the thread...

Besides I don't even have any power on this forum lol

[FK in the Coffee]

Not related to that, but I sincerely hope we get a larger diversity of developers making games in the coming years/decades. I think a broader range of voices would be nothing but positive for the scene. I think one of the limiting factors to that is that game development - and tech in general - has, for the most part, been a white male dominated industry for most of its history. It's exciting that the paradigm is beginning to shift this days, albeit slowly, but I can't wait until the toxicity of the general gaming community gets diluted enough to accept more people from different perspectives and walks of life.

[Canned Turkey]

What if you have a different perspective, but you're still a white male?

[ProgramGamer]

Then you've deluded yourself into thinking your perspective is unique. :^)

[FK in the Coffee]

Your perspective as a white male can only take you so far. You can't make a game about being a woman, or being black, Latino, Asian, or Middle-Eastern from an honest perspective; you simply haven't lived those experiences.

[gimymblert]

You can still make it though

... as you can see by the huge amount of terrible stuff and the few good that rise to visibility.

The key is to definitely doing research AND involving many people of different perspective, but that might save you from the curator effect and legit criticism.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

Did Diablo 3 tackle racism with Tyrael?

[Canned Turkey]

Meta-discussion time.

There's a difference between tackling hard subjects by focusing on racism and marginalization, and wanting there to be a larger voice for a minority.

Any old Joe off the forums can make a good game that deals with racism if he does some research/interviews and understands the subject.

You guys are saying you want more games to deal with racism, but that's not what it sounds like you want. It sounds like there's a want for a larger demographic of game developers so that people from marginalized groups can have a voice amidst the majority.

Which is not something that can be talked into existence.

[gimymblert]

Did Diablo 3 tackle racism with Tyrael?

I don't know about diablo, so I don't know, but it's spectrum. HOWEVER if he is the bald (cornrow do it too), bulky strong, competant with weapon, righteous guy (or jokey) of the team ... like so many black men in game (think not link) he isn't very good.

@canned

It's multi faceted of course, because if it was simple we would had fixed it.

The gist of it is how do you make minorities feel welcome in a way that don't condescend them?
- telling their story in a way that humanize them is a start
- including them in role where their difference is not a big deal and normalize them help a lot
- including their participation into works in a way where they are visible
- allowing them to tell story that express their interest as individual
- allowing them to move into spotlight and be authority on the same level on any subjects that does not pertain to their origin
- allowing them to access resource (ie not blocking them) that allow all of the above.

The problem is the subtility of certain behavior, if you mostly network with friend like you in a bar, you are already preventing networking with woman because a bar is not very safe for women in general, even though yo can, it bias it against them very strongly, is it blocking? Functionally yes, even though you don't feel like it.

[Torchkas]

I don't think I've ever played a single game that tackles racism.

That said, this hypothetical character doesn't speak to the reality of being black in the USA. Like it or not, in storytelling everything is code. This is how it SHOULD be as long as we are using the code intentionally. Having someone in a game be black, then take away the differentiating social factors of blackness, maybe does a disservice to the experience of being black (assuming this game exists within some flavor of our reality.) And in fantasy worlds, you are absolutely right - there should be more. Way way more.

This is pretty misguided since being black doesn't automatically tie you to the black culture identity. There are also a lot of places where white people aren't the majority at all.
Now I do personally think that it is interesting when differentiating social factors get tackled where they exist, but "reality" doesn't just concern your country.

[s0]

i actually think too many games reflect american (to be more precise, american white middle class) experiences and cultural norms, even games that weren't developed in the US at all. probably because they copy american media.

[Superb Joe]

Resident Evil 5