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« Reply #120 on: October 07, 2015, 03:02:14 PM »

i always felt mass effect succeeded in that regard with minor plots. whereas bigger events would usually play the same with a different character taking place of another that might have died or whatever, small events, like when you meet Helena Blake on Omega, kept me stumped that I impacted somewhat her life, even if it just means two different lines of dialogue.

I find that usually acknowledgements of somewhat inconsequential events have a bigger impact on the player into making it more personal. Probably because you wouldn't expect to care/remember/whatever, whereas branching storylines usually impact heavily some characters.

Also, I just realized the meta game awarenes of this game is similar to Save the Date
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« Reply #121 on: October 07, 2015, 03:13:35 PM »

Quote
I find that usually acknowledgements of somewhat inconsequential events have a bigger impact on the player into making it more personal. Probably because you wouldn't expect to care/remember/whatever, whereas branching storylines usually impact heavily some characters.

yes i think that's it pretty much. i find that especially unconscious actions having some sort of impact is a big part of making games feel more alive. this is something undertale does extremely well.

also imo its better to not lay out story relevant choices too clearly. a lot of games with narrative choices feel too "mechanical" to me because its too obvious when you're making choices that will affect The Story(tm) and their outcome is too predictable. obv it makes sense for choices that are also pivotal points in the plot, but it should be used sparingly imo.

i guess too many narrative agency games conceive of the player as an author rather than an actor? sth like that??
« Last Edit: October 07, 2015, 03:20:53 PM by Silbereisen » Logged
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« Reply #122 on: October 08, 2015, 06:23:12 AM »

finished my pacifist run last night. pacifist spoilersss:

Wow! Who would have ever guessed Asgore is Flowey's father?

Also I kinda love how they handled the true lab creatures, and how even the monsters at the end give them a warm welcome. Mechanically it also serves as a foreshadowing for asriel final stage.
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« Reply #123 on: October 10, 2015, 02:38:40 PM »

http://palidoozy-art.tumblr.com/post/130484009396/
http://readypercival.tumblr.com/post/130750347989/
http://nhaingen.tumblr.com/post/130048560944/
http://i.imgur.com/d7wXpRa.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/q5f6aOS.jpg

The fanart for this game is pretty amazing
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« Reply #124 on: October 25, 2015, 12:08:24 AM »

Here's a review:

After seeing what this game has to offer, it does a lot of neat things. But there was something that felt "off" about it. Loved the characters and parodies of various tropes. The battle system was simple, becoming a bullet-hell styled experience. No real complexity to it, just select this command and this other one next turn or hit this command repeatedly. So the only part of the battle system that was exciting to me was the "dodging", especially during special fights where the mechanics might change.

I felt the game took itself too seriously at times though. It had some good moments with that, but it sort of cheapened the experience for me. Especially at the end. But the best moments are when the characters are interacting or when the game makes you expect one thing and it suddenly turns to be something completely different (at least, when it does it correctly...).

My biggest complaint, the reason I feel off, is the experience as a whole. I love playing games. I love morals and stories. I love both together. But then I compare this game to the Mother series (which it's practically based off of). This game is trying to be a lot like Mother to an extent. It's obviously trying to do other things too with the game remembering things even when you save/restart. I had to think about this for a bit until I realized what felt so off.

I'm a guy who really respects the Mother series (Mother 3 being my favorite game to a degree). But if you asked me,"Why do you love EarthBound/Mother SOOOO much". I'd reply: It's not the mechanics, art, music. Heck it's not even the story or interactions. It's what it taught me. When you play games, why do you play them? They offer a wide array of experiences but many could say they are there to: (1. Pass the time (2. Escapism (3. Educational (4. Socializing(multiplayer)

But Mother to me did the opposite of Escapism. It made me look at normal life in different ways, appreciate the small details, accept reality and be happy about it. I wasn't sure what I really wanted to do in life other than art but as soon as I finished EarthBound my first time I decided I wanted to learn to program and make games.

And that's where I felt Undertale, fails. While it made me think about "its" world, "its" characters, "its" story...it felt too absorbed with itself. It feels like it's trying to escape the norm of RPGs with its twists only to fall back on itself in the end. At least only in the sense that it's trying to do something unique and new, I love the story...for the most part. What I'm trying to say here is, what do you gain from when it's all over? A good experience? Sure. But I felt that the game could've built itself up to be something even greater than it could've been had it not gone with the plot point of "NO! Don't reset your game! Don't you want them to live a happy life?!" The message I got from this game felt like...the complete opposite of Mother.

What I got from Mother: Live life and appreciate everything! What I got from Undertale(Pacifist and Genocide): (1. See these characters? Be good to them! (2. HOW DARE YOU KILL THEM YOU MONSTER...wait.

The Mercy mechanic go me thinking, is that REALLY new? In Pokemon, the worse you can do is make another Pokemon faint. In EarthBound, you also never kill. You either "taught them a lesson" or "turned to normal". Or if they were a robot they were destroyed. I'm just saying this because it makes the Pacifist run feel like its been done already in other games. Only Genocide seems interesting but I'm the type of guy that will morally go for the good path. ALSO: Couldn't it be argued that letting the Amalgamates be wouldn't be very merciful? They are suffering monsters that seem to barely be able to live. Plus, they were already suppose to be dead. Wouldn't it be more merciful to end their suffering at that stage?

I do like the discussion this game brings. I think it's a good stepping stone for new ways to think about how games could be made. And I like how the game makes you think, like with Asgore and other similar fights. It can lead to some conflicting emotions. At the end of the day, despite the great story, characters and interesting ways the plot could resolve, the final result left me...

UNDERWHELMED! 
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« Reply #125 on: October 25, 2015, 01:41:23 AM »

Youre right, the mercy mechanic is not really new, but undertale does it better than most games. Same with the morality stuff, esp considering the genre. In most JRPGs you spend a lot of time grinding a seemingly endless supply of generic enemies and nothing you do gameplay-wise outside of boss battles has any real consequence to anything other than your characters leveling up. Undertale is the exact opposite of that. It's also one of the few games I've played where "morality" doesnt feel contrived or hypocritical.

Like I said, I didn't care for a lot of the "meta" stuff tho. I felt like flowey ruins some of the game's subtlety because he doesn't really add any new themes to the story, just screams the existing themes in your face basically.
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« Reply #126 on: October 25, 2015, 12:59:56 PM »

Boss battle art (spoiler)

Also here's a collection of phone calls in case you missed some.
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« Reply #127 on: October 25, 2015, 01:25:16 PM »

btw

Quote
And that's where I felt Undertale, fails. While it made me think about "its" world, "its" characters, "its" story...it felt too absorbed with itself. It feels like it's trying to escape the norm of RPGs with its twists only to fall back on itself in the end. At least only in the sense that it's trying to do something unique and new, I love the story...for the most part. What I'm trying to say here is, what do you gain from when it's all over? A good experience? Sure. But I felt that the game could've built itself up to be something even greater than it could've been had it not gone with the plot point of "NO! Don't reset your game! Don't you want them to live a happy life?!" The message I got from this game felt like...the complete opposite of Mother.

i actually semi-agree. i thought it was a little strange how precious the game is about its characters and it felt weird that it basically tried to strongarm me into caring about them.

however, i eventually decided to just roll with it and had a much better experience. this is a game that really makes you "feel" the weight of your decisions emotionally, even if you don't care that much about the characters (like i did). i don't think it really teaches you any "life lessons" other than "be nice to people" (duh!), but then again i don't remember a single videogame that actually changed my outlook on life so.  Shrug

it does come damn close to solving a huge "ludonarrative dissonance" problem in game design regarding moral choices tho and that alone is pretty damn commendable. i see it as a game that includes a lot of neat ideas for future narrative games to build on.
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« Reply #128 on: October 25, 2015, 01:35:48 PM »

I read up to here, I like the discussion so far, and in general, comments sections are pretty calm, which is highly unusual. The overwhelming love about the game is hard to dismiss, and I fail to be critical about it too. Silber mentioned one thing I was thinking of, the narrative. The ludic narrative of this game is better than any others I can think of. Explaining would be spoiler-iffic. I ran out of most things to say. Although there's still games as art to discuss, specifically how this game pushes the envelope.


Players will feel judged. The narrative of Undertale is more powerful than older games. More refined player-centric criticism feels personal, and always will be (better question is why they reveal their personal opinions publicly and revel in outrage against something without admitting it is art).  The earliest complaints I read were in Nintendo Power(tm) Magazine, at least one fan submitted letter was about how the Tetris game made annoying sounds and they'd shut it off to go vent frustration. Frequently, player-centric criticism results in players raging (single copy artwork gets desecrated all the time, that's 'viewer centric' and it makes people feel ashamed. Again, that's art). The most pervasive online emotion is without a doubt, the feeling you get when being shamed by killers by a non-physical medium (you can't destroy the cartridge anymore). (Check out Bartle's Taxonomy of player types in multiplayer games linked after, seems to apply to any game.)

I also find Undertale took into account Bartle's. Because there's a little bit for everyone, even in the meta component that 'killer-centric' genocide run has a clear and devastating (link) Planet of the Apes message. (link) Nobody can claim the developer wanted the world destroyed because the intentions were made very clear Gentleman.

Games can talk back. That is part of the uniqueness of games as art, when completed (played) the player has exerted some desire on that world. In the case of Undertale it changes slowly, even by dying, it informs the player every step of the way, the completed work is critiqued. In order to show what Undertale's about the most relevant decision made occurs within the first hour of the game.

It's pretty cool this way.

GameBoy Tetris commercial 1989


Bartle's taxonomy by Extra Credits

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« Reply #129 on: October 25, 2015, 02:33:39 PM »

My problem was that I thought the story and experiences you had would lead to one thing, but something else happens in the end that makes it feel like the game was building up for a plot twist rather than what the point of it really is. There is a point, but it's nothing new. Just makes the rest of the experience feel like it led to nothing special...for me anyways. I just had too high expectations after seeing what the game was offering.

My main reason for feeling disappointed was when Asriel was revealed at the end. He's still very nonsensical like he was before, but when you begin calling to him he has flashbacks when in reality he nor Frisk nor YOU have any real connection other than Frisk looks like the child Asriel grew up with. So it felt like...so, why are we suddenly getting emotional here? And then it Deus Ex Machina with breaking the seal and EVERYONE who had their souls absorbed are suddenly back?! I guess that's okay, but it feels like the result of a forced story.

The game gets a B instead of an A in my book. Though I'll always rave about the good things it does. Just saying that a way better game could be made in the future.
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« Reply #130 on: October 25, 2015, 04:14:53 PM »

There are sstrong implications that *genocide spoiler* the player is actually sorta controlling the fallen child who attempts to influence frisk up to a point (with him being the entity that describes items and stuff, most evident once you start the genocide run proper).
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« Reply #131 on: October 25, 2015, 04:16:01 PM »

intersting read: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/DevelopersForesight/Undertale
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« Reply #132 on: October 25, 2015, 11:19:10 PM »

Disclaimer I haven't played undertale nor earthboud

1- I find it unfair to compare this game to earthbound, it is its own thing hence why they diverge on some thing, the guy who made the game was a earthbound rom hacker, it only become compared to eathbound because all those association is known.

2 - mercy mechanics. It's very different from a pokemon fainting or other non violent interaction. In fact capturing a pokemon or fleeing would be closest in term of gameplay, it end the gameplay on VOLUNTARY actions. However mercy isn't the same as those, because it has more meaning in the game. Which lead to.

3 - IT'S NOT A COMBAT SYSTEM it's a complete self contain interactive narrative scene. In typical RPG, interaction with NPC are small, you listen to them, take a quest, fight them, maybe give them gift and eventually select a dialog option, in general through a contrived gameplay system. Here all those interaction happen in the "mock combat system", which has a definite and unique interactive story arc, whose action are actual choice and reveal the character of the npc. Except less contrive. It's a full and complete interaction with the npc, in which you learn more about them, as they display behavior in relation to your actions. Even the abstracted gameplay part is integrated as a narrative element in which event happen.

If anything the game show you can make interesting character interaction using a modal system that put the focus on character and add still has tension. It solve a major pacing problem of padding mechanics such as fighting and talking by literally merging them, ie interacting with npc is moving the game and the plot at the same time.

I think the game work on a combination on good writing, subverting expectation and good pacing. Every subversion is maybe a subversion of tropes, but they also always are element that break pacing and introduce character in otherwise pacing black hole that is typical game busywork (like solving a block puzzle), the effect is always to accelerate a part where slowdown are expected by turning it into a joke, I think it help the enjoyment of the game that this anticipation is relieved.





I love the evolution of the guy as the  game advance (cut and edited video)

BTW the game music send me BIG vibe of secret of mana
« Last Edit: October 25, 2015, 11:47:01 PM by Jimym GIMBERT » Logged

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« Reply #133 on: October 26, 2015, 12:18:37 AM »

It's more comparable to Mother 3 than EarthBound. The dialogue is VERY similar, if not exactly like the Mother series and how it handles parodies/tropes is also very similar. Though Mother has a tendency to go from Cheery to suddenly being real and dark in a snap, then go right back to normal while never taking itself too seriously...while Undertale does take itself seriously at points. Undertale does take a different direction than the Mother series, which I like. It's just that I also felt like it failed to do something that the Mother series got right.

The Hotland area and above also gave me similar vibes to Porky's Tower in Mother 3 with the elevators and nonsensical "mini-games" you went through. The Final Boss was similar to ALL the Final Bosses in the Mother games. The graphics are also obviously base on Mother AND many songs use EarthBound instruments (Toriel's theme, Ghost song, Amalgam, Here we are, etc).

As for mercy mechanics, I think they could have been handled better. When I think about it, what will the player ultimately do? It feels like very early on they're going to choose whether to peacefully resolve things, or kill absolutely everything. There might be a few players who'll kill a few to get some more HP to get through the game (Though the game is easy enough I find that it's not needed). What I'm saying is that the player will follow one path the whole way through and try to dedicate to it entirely. So it's either Mercy, Mercy, Mercy, Mercy... OR No-Mercy,No-Mercy,No-Mercy,No-Mercy.

What could make the Mercy mechanic better is if there were more pros and cons too it. Let's say you fight this gang member. You can talk it out with them and gain the gangs trust, or kill him for a reward with another faction. Or just teach him a lesson and be neutral. I want more risk verses reward or I can do this and get this but lose out on getting this. I want more of that with Undertale's system of interaction. Then the player REALLY has to consider their choices, since they could get attached to a rival or enemy they have to perhaps kill. Or someone they hated they'll love on the next playthrough because they never tried getting attached to them.
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« Reply #134 on: October 26, 2015, 07:17:32 AM »

Except the mercy mechanics is not a gameplay choice, it's a narrative choice, it's not really different that paragon renegade but with more interactivity (the entire system leading to it) And based on playthrough it's not true that the player is doing an "either" assessment, if anything it's more of a "role play" mechanics (most players I watch frame it as either they like the character or not). Framing as risk reward turn it into a simple economic assessment and the game do much better than that. The only reason you default to an "either" mentality is when you already anticipate what the story develop into, or making the game into something it's not. By turning the story into a only dry mechanic you rob it of it's expressive power.

So yes maybe we dcan do more, but it was a first to make such a self contain interaction system, even though it misled the player by framing it as a "fighting system" (toriel is telling it's a fight system BUT you must talk out of it). Take inspiration from it to go in whatever direction you want.

Also this system with that quality and density of interaction in combat is only possible because the game is "linear" and choice only "adapt" subsequent scene to them without significantly changing things around, which is a smart way to handle "choice" very much like mass effect. It's kind of "liquid rescale" rather than pure branching. It's something to consider from a production stand point.

BY the way, the final boss of ALL mother was the actual initial inspiration of the game so ... (source super bunny hop)
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« Reply #135 on: October 26, 2015, 12:19:45 PM »

Quote
Except the mercy mechanics is not a gameplay choice, it's a narrative choice, it's not really different that paragon renegade but with more interactivity (the entire system leading to it)

but a narrative choice IS a gameplay choice. idgi

Quote
Also this system with that quality and density of interaction in combat is only possible because the game is "linear" and choice only "adapt" subsequent scene to them without significantly changing things around

the weird thing is that it feels like you have more impact on the story than in games with actual branching stories (to me it feels that way at least). you have a genuine sense that characters remember you and your actions.

u know, this has made me think. maybe "narrative player agency" in games is not really about giving the player more control over the plot at all. maybe we should replace narrative agency with "narrative impact". hmmm...

i think the fact that the game is very guarded about revealing its choice structure to you and you can make choices unconsciously is also a big part of what makes it feel more alive than your typical "narrative choice game".
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« Reply #136 on: October 26, 2015, 02:13:00 PM »

Narrative choice vs gameplay choice: I meant it in the dissociative way when player "perform" to optimize instead of role play. It does not seem to me that the game operate on "optimality" as a value nor as an experience, it's an imported value that bias the reception due to habituation and tradition of game culture.
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« Reply #137 on: October 26, 2015, 02:21:14 PM »

I just realized (or I'm forgetting something stupidly): How did the Player escape the Underground in the Neutral ending? They needed a Monster Soul to do that...but Flowey killed Asgore and they can't absorb other human souls. How DID they get out, since the ending bit implies that they did?
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« Reply #138 on: October 26, 2015, 02:36:17 PM »

what about all those monster you kill (because neutral)? I don't really know either Who, Me?

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« Reply #139 on: October 26, 2015, 02:38:00 PM »

Yeah, I think a big part of what makes the choices interesting is that they're not explicitly presented as "good guy choice" and "bad guy choice," and you press a button to choose one of them. You actually have to behave differently to go down the different paths.

I thought the battle mechanics were really cleverly done, too. The fact that the everything you do in battles is symbolized by a bunch of icons moving around rather than literal objects makes it way easier to design engaging "fights" while letting the play avoid doing anything violent. Like, what you're doing during enemy turns doesn't directly translate to what you're doing in the game world, but you can see how they connect.

My favorites were ones like Woshua where you have to clean yourself by running into the right drops of water while dodging the others -- it turns the inherently passive choice not to fight into something active and interesting. Plus, by abstracting the battles away from a literal representation, you can do all kinds of neat things like slowing the heart down, giving it gravity, etc. that wouldn't really make sense if the fights were literally a little person moving around.
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