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[mks]

Flexibility regarding unsociable and extended working hours to meet the demands of the role.

http://www.rockstargames.com/de/careers/position/781fb8fc/rockstar-lincoln

Work or die

[starsrift]

They're dreaming if they think they can get residuals.
There's no reason in the world that they can't get better working conditions.

[Pfotegeist]

Yesterday I was a big company executive. The idea that bad working conditions are acceptable is mind enslavement, and I never forced it on anyone, they allowed it. If the workers don't stick together, argue about coworker fairness, and can easily be replaced, then as a big company executive I don't have to give it a second thought. In fact, I can be honest about it, I don't want change because nobody is forcing the working conditions improve now, the company is at worker market equilibrium. When things look rough for the product profit margins (or me, since I'm playing the money game) I'm under no legal obligation to recommend pay outside what contracts explicitly require.  It is the nature of the big company executive to worry about company success, nothing else.

[Schoq]

and that is why it's an intrinsically immoral institution and ever siding with them is super dumb
frankly I suspect* the main reason game dev workers in america have it so bad is because of an anti union culture full of naïve suckers thinking a replaceable code monkey's HARD WORK and LOYALTY until burnout will get noticed and pay off.

_{*mostly talking out of my ass here}

[s0]

welp i keep hearing that the gam industry attracts naive and gullible people at least.


seriously tho, this is a good effort and i hope others follow suit regardless of what the reasons are.

[TamaraRyan]

I think having a union for game devs is a great idea. Everyone deserves a good work environment and good working conditions. That goes for the VAs as well. Part of the reason they're striking is because yelling into a mic for hours on end is physically damaging, and there are currently no rules in place to help prevent that. As for the money, I would think ANYONE who worked on the game should get a piece of that sweet residual pie. Right now it's all going to the CEOs and whatnot. I think it's important to remember that the VAs aren't saying nobody else should get bonuses, but that they deserve them too. For the people that say VAs don't add anything to a game. Play more games. Voice acting has become pretty much essential to making a game the best it can be (a game that includes voices in the first place I mean).

my favorite video on this so far is from The Jimquisition:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BzDtjGyRRQ&feature=youtu.be&list=PLlRceUcRZcK0E1Id3NHchFaxikvCvAVQe

[SirNiko]

I hope, if there is a strike, the voice actors get together (perhaps with a sympathetic programmer) and do something like when the writers guild made Dr. Horrible during their strike. Could be a double victory.

[InfiniteStateMachine]

I wonder if the reason for resistance by publishers has more to do with the fact that if they DO get royalties then game developers will begin to organize and revolt.

[TamaraRyan]

I wonder if the reason for resistance by publishers has more to do with the fact that if they DO get royalties then game developers will begin to organize and revolt.

But then you think about the crews on TV shows and movies. Actors get residuals for those, and there hasn't been the whole "If they get a bonus, then I want a bonus!" backlash.

I think it's just the reality that actors play a vital role in telling a story. Sure there are games that choose not to have voice acting and that's an artistic choice. But for the games that DO have it, you better have the best voice actors you can afford because it will make or break your game.

[SirNiko]

Also, a lot of US anti-union sentiment began during the end of the US steel companies, where relatively lavish bonuses and high pay secured by unions made those companies completely un-competitive in the world market and effectively destroyed the US steel industry. Federal laws such as mandatory union membership and automatic deduction of union fees from paychecks left individuals powerless to contest a union they felt was pushing too hard for unrealistic benefits. Unrealistic benefits aren't necessarily just too much pay, but can also be problems like making it too difficult to fire poor quality workers.

Public sector unions specifically are a problem in that neither side (the union or government management) has a strong incentive to control costs or ensure quality work. There is also the problem that the union can influence sympathetic politicians with campaign support, who in turn can empower the union. As US government debt is effectively bottomless, you no longer have the failsafe of a government agency bankrupting as a result of bad practices.

It's unfortunate that some people have made the mistake of assuming that all unions are bad, but it's also a mistake to think that unions are always (or even almost always) good. They're capable of making big (selfish) mistakes that destroy companies or even exploit the workers through hefty union dues and protection of bad employees, and they have had negative effects on US industry that may have been avoidable.

That said, I think the voice actors (and programmers, graphics artists, etc.) should go for it. Unions are definitely a tool that can be used for good, and the demands the voice actors are making seem reasonable to me. If it turns out they're not reasonable for whatever reason, the risk is on them anyway.

[Torchkas]

just wanted to say that the role of actors in movies isn't comparable to their role in games. like a lot of things between those two mediums.

let there be a strike though, I really want to see what will happen

[s0]

im just happy about anything that takes money away from overpaid suits and gives it to people actually doing hands-on work.

(yes i know management can be "real work" too)

[Schoq]

I also feel like in from a completely selfish standpoint players should support this cuz voice acting under better conditions should bring up its quality lots.

unless you feel like c-movie voice acting is an integral part of the medium at this point

[starsrift]

just wanted to say that the role of actors in movies isn't comparable to their role in games. like a lot of things between those two mediums.

let there be a strike though, I really want to see what will happen

Most games don't use SAG voiceover work anyway. Might be some holdouts for reliable 'blockbusters', I could see Bethesda working a deal within their framework, for instance, but chances are that the big guys will just concentrate further on using non-unionized folks... and maybe give a few concessions to the non-union guys. There's no real reason a voice actor can't, for instance, just put in a couple hours a day over more days instead of a bunch of hours in a short span, other than it maybe messes with some design/manager guy's time.

One thing to keep in mind is that the SAG itself is usually pretty much dicks to actors too, so this is a little weird to watch.

[Sik]

Most games don't use SAG voiceover work anyway.

Yeah, I was gonna point out this as soon as I noticed this thread. Developers already avoid SAG like the plague (both for money reasons and for their policy of not allowing mixing SAG and non-SAG actors, in a field where finding a replacement is nearly impossible) so SAG going on strike does nearly nothing to them in practice.

[InfiniteStateMachine]

I wonder if the reason for resistance by publishers has more to do with the fact that if they DO get royalties then game developers will begin to organize and revolt.

But then you think about the crews on TV shows and movies. Actors get residuals for those, and there hasn't been the whole "If they get a bonus, then I want a bonus!" backlash.

I think it's just the reality that actors play a vital role in telling a story. Sure there are games that choose not to have voice acting and that's an artistic choice. But for the games that DO have it, you better have the best voice actors you can afford because it will make or break your game.

Those crews are in unions that get paid excessively well the moment overtime occurs. That goes a long way towards them not complaining. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Royalty or crew-style triple overtime, publishers wouldn't want to give either. I never said they would organize and revolt purely for royalties, you inferred that.

You aren't saying you think a voice actor has more impact on the quality of the game than a game designer are you? The blanket statement that voice acting quality is going to make or break a game is highly dubious. I would still play a game like civilization if Ceasar sounded like Alvin and the Chipmunks.

You word that in way that comes off as you feel you are better than the rest of the development team. Probably a result of you directly comparing apples to oranges.

[TamaraRyan]

I wonder if the reason for resistance by publishers has more to do with the fact that if they DO get royalties then game developers will begin to organize and revolt.

But then you think about the crews on TV shows and movies. Actors get residuals for those, and there hasn't been the whole "If they get a bonus, then I want a bonus!" backlash.

I think it's just the reality that actors play a vital role in telling a story. Sure there are games that choose not to have voice acting and that's an artistic choice. But for the games that DO have it, you better have the best voice actors you can afford because it will make or break your game.

Those crews are in unions that get paid excessively well the moment overtime occurs. That goes a long way towards them not complaining. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Royalty or crew-style triple overtime, publishers wouldn't want to give either. I never said they would organize and revolt purely for royalties, you inferred that.

You aren't saying you think a voice actor has more impact on the quality of the game than a game designer are you? The blanket statement that voice acting quality is going to make or break a game is highly dubious. I would still play a game like civilization if Ceasar sounded like Alvin and the Chipmunks.

You word that in way that comes off as you feel you are better than the rest of the development team. Probably a result of you directly comparing apples to oranges.

I was not aware of the tv crews and the like having a union status as well. If that's the case, then game devs should most definitely have a union too! And no, I am not saying a voice actors have more impact on the quality of the game than a game designer. That would be ridiculous. However, I AM saying that they have a very real and important impact on the game. You personally might not care if Ceasar sounds like Alvin and the Chipmunks, but I bet that would take away from the overall quality of the game for other people.

[InfiniteStateMachine]

Alright fair enough. I'm sorry I flew off the handle like that. That shot about Civilization was uncalled for on my part. This is obviously very personal for me. In fact I've been working a lot of triple overtime lately myself.

I fully support the creative trades trying to get a fair deal. It just felt when I read your post like you didn't seem to care about the other people involved in the project outside of actors. We're all in this together and should stick together rather than splinter our crafts and trades by type then bail out once we get what WE want.

I'll fight for you and you fight for me deal ?

[TamaraRyan]

Alright fair enough. I'm sorry I flew off the handle like that. That shot about Civilization was uncalled for on my part. This is obviously very personal for me. In fact I've been working a lot of triple overtime lately myself.

I fully support the creative trades trying to get a fair deal. It just felt when I read your post like you didn't seem to care about the other people involved in the project outside of actors. We're all in this together and should stick together rather than splinter our crafts and trades by type then bail out once we get what WE want.

I'll fight for you and you fight for me deal ?

It's cool. I can see how my post could be seen in the way that it was. I should have explained myself further. I know too many indie devs and the amount of work that they do to not support them as well. I got your back.

[Dragonmaw]

Re: Civilization, don't forget that Civ 4 had an accomplished actor (Leonard Nimoy) voice act, and it made a HUGE difference.