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[s0]

i think yall are ignoring an important aspect to secrets. secrets that are really hard to find, even absurdly hard to find, generate conversations among players. they can add a social element to an otherwise singleplayer game. like, if you were a kid who played pokemon during the original late 90s craze, im sure you remember all the schoolyard rumors that exploded after people found missingno. missingno wasn't even a deliberately included secret and 99% of these rumors turned out to be false, but the social bond they created among pokemon fans was great.

this also ties back into what i was saying about "meaningful" secrets. i'm not talking about hugging walls to get health upgrades, i mean hidden things that make you go "woah, i would never have expected THAT to be in THIS game!". that's the sort of thing that gets people talking and creates this social effect. imo this is one of the things that make undertale so popular, for instance.

[Dacke]

Is the gossip factor relevant for anything but really big games, though?

[s0]

it can make a gam big i think. frog fractions is another great example of a game that got popular because of that sort of thing.

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

Reminds of the secret non existing cow level in diablo 1, generated lot of conversations and gaming with friends when i was in middle school.

[s0]

and was acknowledged by blizzard in diablo 2 lol

[Alevice]

but sc1 said that there is no cow level

[Dacke]

Are you sure it can make games big? Would gossip like that have an impact outside a group of people who had already played it?

- Do you know about Pokémon?
- No, what's that?
- It's a game where you catch and train monsters
- Sounds cool
- Yeah, and do you know what!? There is a bug in the game that allows you to catch a glitched monster!!!1!!
- Oh

My understanding of gossip is that it's only powerful in contexts that people are familiar with (games many people have played, celebrities, common friends). And while others think they know what's going on, you're in on the secret, which makes you special.

If something fairly popular become a talkie, that can surely increase it's impact. But I doubt it would be relevant for an indie game.

[s0]

dude, i just mentioned an indie game that got popular BECAUSE of this in my previous post

[Dacke]

Yes, you mentioned Frog Fractions. I've never heard of it. But Wikipedia says it got popular because of reviewers liking the "wild range of gameplay mechanics" and how "deranged" it was. 

Could elaborate on what happened?

[s0]

you can play it. it's a flash game.

well basically almost all of the game is "hidden".

[cynicalsandel]

it also got a sequel on kickstarter funded on the basis that nobody would know what it was when it came out and you only get your copy of the game once "the jig was up" and people figured out the game was frog fractions 2

[Terrytheplatypus]

Many metroidvanias (Eternal Daughter, Knytt, etc.) have a magical sense of exploration and discovery, while at the same time having engaging gameplay all along the way.

all the knytt games have secrets, i think maybe you just don't see it as tedious because nifflas does something right

[Dacke]

I think I've identified a problem: we're talking about a bunch of different phenomena and calling them all secrets. Perhaps it would be a good idea to figure out a few categories/types.

all the knytt games have secrets, i think maybe you just don't see it as tedious because nifflas does something right

Sure, and so does Eternal Daughter. I meant to cite them as examples where exploration and discovery feel special/magical within the standard gameplay.

[oahda]

But if you announce the discovery with an ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED banner I will personally come to your house and destroy all copies of your codebase.

Not to derail this into a discussion of achievements, but could you elaborate? I'm curious whether the issue is making an explicit acknowledgement of the secret, or spoiling it/turning it into a thing to check off a list if a full list of achievements is viewable, or just achievements being gross in general, or something else.

Both. And immersion. Which cannot really be discussed as it is a subjective opinion. I've brought it up before and know many disagree with me. I think it should always at least be optional. And I'm only talking about immersive games here. It's fine in some casual toilet game for mobile.

[saluk]

I think what is kind of being discussed here is the makeup of a games content. There is the golden path, and then there is "extra". And what does that "extra" look like? Some games have a lot of "padding" content - it's not secret at all, but it's somewhat optional stuff that you can do along the way. Secrets could be defined as extra content which is purposely made difficult to see. So it's good in a way, in that it is not padding - it's just a bonus for people who really love your game to give them something more. Most of your players aren't going to look for these. Being hidden also gives players a slightly different way to engage with the content. I like those extra little things you can find in an action game, as they give you something quite different from the core mechanic.

The more you add achievements to this or a scoring mechanism, the more it looks less like "secret optional task" and more like padding. Because to many players, anything that the game tracks is going to feel like it belongs in that golden path.

An interesting counterpoint:
Rogue-likes are a genre where essentially the core gameplay is uncovering secrets. There is no difference between finding that weird potion with the strange effect and the core gameplay. There is no golden path as any path you take is as "blessed" as any other. Even when you die, you have hopefully uncovered more of the game or at least deepened your knowledge of it.

[s0]

An interesting counterpoint:
Rogue-likes are a genre where essentially the core gameplay is uncovering secrets. There is no difference between finding that weird potion with the strange effect and the core gameplay. There is no golden path as any path you take is as "blessed" as any other. Even when you die, you have hopefully uncovered more of the game or at least deepened your knowledge of it.

that is a very good point actually, i've never thought about it like that.

[saluk]

Continuing, I think my favorite secrets in games are less of the Pokemon "mess with the random number generator in this area for 10 hours" style, and more of the "secret room with a dastardly hard challenge" type. You find this a lot in platformers. Perhaps the initial getting there is something dumb like pressing against a wall in the right spot, but when you get there your reward isn't an achievement, or a % complete, but another little bit of content that would be downright CRUEL if it were in the golden path, but as an optional task it makes you excited to find more content.

Donkey Kong Country's bonus rooms are kind of like this. They are a challenge to get to, and a challenge to complete, but use basically the same skills. As a reward... extra lives? Not that useful. The content is the real reward.

But then, I think you can also argue - why not just expose this extra content in a "bonus missions" menu or something? Is the extra challenge of finding them worth it? You will have more players actually see the content you made if you don't make it hidden. Professor Layton has bonus puzzles hidden around the world - if you miss them, there is an npc you can go talk to who will at least let you play the puzzles you missed in the last section. This could be a good way to compromise.

[zombieonion]

Is the gossip factor relevant for anything but really big games, though?

The gossip factor will increase the exposure for small games. Might even have a positive effect on the sales of a small game.

[DangerMomentum]

But then, I think you can also argue - why not just expose this extra content in a "bonus missions" menu or something? Is the extra challenge of finding them worth it? You will have more players actually see the content you made if you don't make it hidden. Professor Layton has bonus puzzles hidden around the world - if you miss them, there is an npc you can go talk to who will at least let you play the puzzles you missed in the last section. This could be a good way to compromise.

With these, I always felt like searching for the bonuses was the real value of hiding them, and the content of the bonus level was just extra. The reward is finding the bonus and getting that exclamation mark next to the level name, ticking off one more box on your way to 101%. Deeply hidden secrets are one of the best ways to maintain interest in your game long after people have mastered it- look at Spelunky or GTA5. People love mysteries, and it'll keep them playing because what if they're the ones to solve it? It's a fantastic motivator and I know I spent far too many hours trying to find new sequence breaks in Metroid games or searching for bonus rooms in the DKC games. Whether or not they're intentionally left by the designer, these secrets and challenges are some of my favorite things about gaming in general.

[travis_foo]

Secrets add to the sense of discovery in the game. The best thing I've seen on this topic comes from the creator of Frog Fractions: