Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1411275 Posts in 69323 Topics- by 58380 Members - Latest Member: bob1029

March 28, 2024, 07:57:45 AM

Need hosting? Check out Digital Ocean
(more details in this thread)
TIGSource ForumsDeveloperAudioIs offering music for free good for the industry?
Pages: [1]
Print
Author Topic: Is offering music for free good for the industry?  (Read 1087 times)
Daniel Stoker
Level 0
**



View Profile WWW
« on: October 23, 2015, 04:45:39 AM »

Hi all,

As title: I've been putting a lot of thought into this topic, and I've drawn my own conclusions, but I'd like to hear everyone elses thoughts.

My own personal belief is that, while offering music to a development for free can be a good move for an individual to get themselves known, it doesn't do anything good for games composers as a whole. I'm not sure how this translates to the more visual mediums or other areas but here we go:

By giving away your tracks, you're creating an image that music isn't an integral part of the design process, or that it's easier or more fun than other aspects of development. Sure, we all love making music, but that doesn't mean we should hand over our craft for free. Our time should be worth something, even if that something is just a token gesture to show a little appreciation. Of course, there will always be exceptions to the rule; Some projects are so creative, interesting or engaging that we really want to be a part of it. Other projects may look like they're going to be successful, so the hope that the publicity will pay for itself further down the line obviously makes sense. To me, however, offering yourself for free before even seeing a project or gauging how it could help you creates an expectation that music should cost nothing. I've been approached by devs on a few occasions who have expected me to work for nothing BEFORE even showing me a screen shot, GDD or pitching their idea. Perhaps this makes me sound entitled, but I feel like the developer should be selling his/herself to me if they want free labour.

Because of the huge number of artists out there willing to work for free, no questions asked, the supply far exceeds the demand. I understand the need to distinguish yourself and make yourself appealing to a developer because of this, but I'm starting to feel a precedent has been set where music costs nothing and you musicians can pay their bills using publicity and job satisfaction alone.

I have seen some genuinely astounding musicians offering their services for nothing on this site. Musicians far more talented than myself, with a much broader range of skills, advertising work for free. Essentially begging just to be included in the development process for a jumping off point. Does anyone else think that this is a real shame? Surely we should be valued a little higher than a credit and a pat on the back? A lot of entry-level programming jobs will pay very handsomely. Are our skills not as specific and difficult to master?

Of course, I'm not saying that I have demanded payment for every job. More often than not, I'll still work for nothing, which makes me a hypocrite I suppose. But I still feel that there's a gap between what we as musicians are willing to work for and what we're worth. As a competitive area of games development, I understand the need to get noticed, and have some projects under your belt to show potential paying customers, but what makes a developer choose you over another up-and-comer who will do it for nothing?

There are, of course, arguments to both sides, and I've drawn my own conclusions as I mentioned way up at the top. But I'm still very interested in the arguments for free work and how that can help progress the industry.

Let's have a discussion?

Cheers,

~ Dan
Logged

Musician with a BSc(Hons 1st Class) in Game Design & Development:

www.danielstoker.jimdo.com
www.soundcloud.com/zigauche
Jean Of mArc
Level 0
**


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2015, 07:10:16 AM »

Hey Zigauche,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and opinions in a clear and well-written manner.  Coffee

I think this is one point of debate among artists, and may actually have been around for a while: whether or not to ever work for free. Those trying to make a living from making game music by charging money for their services have a tough battle ahead of them to begin with. When other capable musicians are willing to work for free, it makes it even more difficult. You can't compete with free.

My supposition is that those that are working for free are supporting themselves financially through other means, whether it be another job, a loan, living with their parents, or what have you. Perhaps the reasoning for working for free is to get their name known, or just because they want to do it as a hobby and don't want to go through the hassle of all the business work. I'm not sure. I think making them aware of how difficult they are making it for everyone else is a message worth sharing. Some will take it to heart and actually start charging for their work, and I think that's a great step forward.

Of course, there are some instances where doing music for free is perfectly valid, such as during a Game Jam (since everyone is just doing it for fun) or for a small, free game that is being made "just for the heck of it". Basically, if no money will be made off the final product, then I think it's reasonable to not expect any money during its development. I think this is a good place for those who work for free to try and make themselves available.

TLDR: If the game will make money, you should expect to make money. If the game will be free, that's a good place to work for free.

 Shrug That's just my take on it, anyway.
Logged
groovyone
Level 0
**


Game Audio Professional


View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2015, 09:12:41 PM »

It's a tough touchy topic to navigate. There's so many factors affecting the decision for the composers and also for the game developers.

Ultimately, we shouldn't be doing things for free when games are being made to be sold.

Unfortunately due to the high competition and overwhelming number of composers trying to get just a single game under their belt, they lower their prices down to try to attract a potential project.

This is easily seen by a lot of developers, and so they know that if said composer charges something, "we'll find xxx number of composers who are willing to do it for nothing"... then you are stuck in a market where music is severely undervalued.

Be aware that once you set your bar low with a developer - it is a lot harder to raise the price after. Though with careful negotiation and good relationship building this can be done.

Try to negotiate with a developer who is planning on selling their game, to receive  a back end payment when the game does sell. Alternatively or in conjunction with a  minimal upfront fee to help keep costs down.

That being said, if a project is non-paid for experience by the developers - like student projects, non-paid work can be ok. I would still, however, always make sure that there's a contract with a clause that if the game does make it to market in the future, then at that point you will receive some sort of compensation.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2015, 11:48:04 PM by groovyone » Logged

www.GroovyAudio.com
: Game-Audio Specialists - Technical & Creative Sound Design, Composition and General Game Audio Consulting.
Michael Klier
Level 1
*



View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2015, 12:21:15 AM »

First off, agreeing with everyone else, I think you should never work for free for a project that is going to be sold. But it doesn't have to be money. If you're starting out you could also do skill trades for example. Just don't work for free.

That being said, I personally think people who are offering their services for free are neither a threat to those who try to make a living by providing a professional service, nor do they devalue the craft. For sure the amount of "will work for free" posts that one comes across on a daily basis can be overwhelming and discouraging.

But I think you shouldn't even consider these people as being a part of the competition. Developers who are working on a project they plan to release for money and don't want to pay for certain parts of their games, be it graphics, animations, audio, trailers whatever, IMO essentially don't value their project from an artistic/quality perspective anyway. So, Developers who don't want to pay for someones work simple can't be considered potential clients. In that sense/logic, you're not loosing clients/money to people who work for free. Cheap work attracts cheap clients and vice versa. Most people who want to create something truly good will not put it at risk by going the cheap route Smiley. The true difficulty lays in finding the good clients. But that's another story.

So instead of being intimidated by the "work for free force" (I just made that up), we as professionals should educate the world about the real value of our craft and why it's worth the investment. It's part of our job.
Logged

Sound Design, Audio Implementation, Music
Reel Twitter
Working on

de11ed
Level 0
***



View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 08:33:15 AM »

Totally agreeing with what people are saying here.

And like you said Michael, they shouldn't be considered part of the competition. If you are making a living out of this you are probably pretty good at this, to the degree that people want to pay you for your work. And if the people who are making their games really care about their craft, then they probably won't turn to someone who does for free, unless they will release the game for free. The hard part is to find those clients that will pay you for your craft. And we're all in this boat together, developers and composers alike, we work in an industri that's filled with people that either have true talent, that are good at marketing themselves or work hard, and some that have it all, it's a constant struggle to stand out and to value your job. And also, setting a fair price is one of the trickiest part at the start of your career. Set it too high and your running the risk of loosing the client, too low and you're damaging the industri.

Like a guy told me once, who owned a studio and was doing really good, either you do it for free or you take a shitload of money for it. I kinda like that philosophy, maybe not taking a shitload, but still. If you are doing it for free, it's a hobby, getting payed, you're a professional  Wink
Logged

composer • producer • songwriter • human
Website | Twitter | Soundcloud
Jasmine
Level 5
*****

Boop


View Profile WWW
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2015, 09:39:27 AM »

Yeah, totally agree with what has been said. My take on it is, if you desire a start in this career and going to college isn't a viable means at the time (a.k.a me), starting yourself off composing for free, for hobbyist projects, as a sort of intership, is a good idea. People looking to gain experience.

I hear a lot of composers talking about don't work for free, but if you have little to no experience, charging for your services seems... inhumane. In that case, I wouldn't take commercial projects, simply because I would want a certain level of craftsmanship appointed with my name. I guess it's one thing to write music to get your name out there, but you should want your work to be comparable to, at least, what's average (by average I mean in terms of mixing capabilities and basic compositional capabilities).

I don't think it's bad. I think that, if done right, it could garner you a bunch of experience to ready yourself for a good commercial project! Offering to write for free on a commercial project is a no-go in my book.

And lord, setting a price for yourself in this profession. That deserves its own thread.
Logged

Daniel Stoker
Level 0
**



View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2015, 05:29:14 AM »

All really good points so far, It seems like there really are two sides to the discussion.

This has actually really helped me to rationalise the way the market in our biz works! It seems a shame that experience is valued more than quality of composition in general: I've seen so many people working for free even though the stuff they're putting out is genuinely incredible, makes me feel kind of bad for charging (generally, as a rule, though not exclusively) for my work.

Thanks all!

Logged

Musician with a BSc(Hons 1st Class) in Game Design & Development:

www.danielstoker.jimdo.com
www.soundcloud.com/zigauche
Magurp244
Guest
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2015, 07:58:08 PM »

Possibly relevant.
Logged
MichaelElmquist
Level 0
**


View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2015, 08:49:10 AM »

What a wonderful conversation here. There's really no point saying anything else since it was all covered. But,

As well as working as a composer, I also work as a photographer in New York City; a place that is teeming with young artists trying to get ahead. However, photography is far more saturated since taking a picture and editing it has been made incredibly easy. So, so many people will do it for free, there's no point hiring someone.

Technology is also making music creating easier and easier, which is terrifying for us composers to stand above the thirsty new artists who get their life paid for them, and have the capacity to do things for free.

At the end of the day, I guess all we can do as artists to stand out, is make our personal creative integrity be clear. Make it something that someone else can't reproduce because it's  ourself.

You can't fake 'King-Kong', you'd have to hire 'King-Kong' himself.
Logged

Pages: [1]
Print
Jump to:  

Theme orange-lt created by panic