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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperAudioQuestions about Audio Programmer qualifications.
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Gargoyle440
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« on: November 04, 2015, 10:47:49 PM »

Hi all,

So I graduated a year and a half ago with a BM in Composition with strong hopes of making it into the world of VGM (being a newcomer to tigsource, it looks like I found the right crowd) with very little luck unfortunately.
Over this last week I've been better educating myself about the audio pipeline in the AAA scene and basically what the differences are between an "Audio Programmer" and an "Audio Designer" and their various iterations.

Long story short, I was just wondering what technical demands and expectations you've seen when you've been hired as an Audio Programmer.  I'm pretty solid on most things acoustic, along with what Fmod and Wwise are and how to use them (mostly (thank you Youtube)) but like, what languages, if any, do the hot shots want/expect you to know?  How much of the job (if any) involves sound manipulation?  Are you a musical coder?  Or a coding musician?
Anyone have any experience with what a potential interviewer would expect?  A demoreel?  A playable build?  A firm handshake and a beer?  All of the above?
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Barendhoff
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2015, 11:30:24 AM »

Welcome to the TIGForums! Always nice to see more spirited audioneers. Currently I don't have time--gotta run!--but I'll make sure to post what answers I have to your questions this weekend. Smiley
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Polly
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2015, 12:20:31 PM »

Audio Programmer is a ( mostly C++ ) programmer role. Here are some quotes from various "Audio Programmer" job listings ..

"Own the engineering audio pipe for idTech which encompasses the core sound engine, game code integration, music management, VO management, middleware integration, and all related audio engineering systems" ( id Software )

"EA looks for the following core skills in an Audio Programmer: C++, direct sound, sound file formats, data streaming, data compression, and MP3 handling." ( EA )

"Please note, this is not a music composition gig - "audio programming" has little to do with "programming note data" in a sequencer!!" ( Media Molecule )
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Gargoyle440
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2015, 01:03:50 PM »

Audio Programmer is a ( mostly C++ ) programmer role. Here are some quotes from various "Audio Programmer" job listings ..

"Own the engineering audio pipe for idTech which encompasses the core sound engine, game code integration, music management, VO management, middleware integration, and all related audio engineering systems" ( id Software )

"EA looks for the following core skills in an Audio Programmer: C++, direct sound, sound file formats, data streaming, data compression, and MP3 handling." ( EA )

"Please note, this is not a music composition gig - "audio programming" has little to do with "programming note data" in a sequencer!!" ( Media Molecule )


Yeah, that all looks really similar to what I've been finding around online and on job sites.
Basically it's a coding gig that has to do with the audio department, but doesn't necessarily mean music composition (unless, of course, it's a small indie gig).
And is C++ pretty much the industry standard?
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Polly
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2015, 02:59:58 PM »

And is C++ pretty much the industry standard?

Yup
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Pearl Pixel
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2015, 07:46:56 PM »

In addition to C++, you should know C#. They are both industry standards.
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This whacko of a person makes music. Perhaps it is of interest: https://soundcloud.com/pearl_pixel
Polly
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« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2015, 04:15:09 AM »

In addition to C++, you should know C#. They are both industry standards.

No. When it comes to Audio Programmer jobs C++ is the standard. All of the Audio Programmer job listings i came across when looking for the quotes i posted mentioned C++ ( and no other languages ) as requirement.
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ZackParrish
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« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2015, 07:01:59 AM »

Here, from an actual programmer that has a ton of experience...

[9:55:28 AM] Incognito: If you're talking sending data to a sound card, mixing sounds as they play, decoding music files, that sort of stuff, it's almost always C++
[9:55:58 AM] Incognito: But if you're just talking code like "hey sound engine, play this file", it'll be whatever language the rest of the project is


To summarize what he said, it's really dependent on the context / level with which you are doing things. If you are using an engine like Unity, it's going to be C# or Javascript. If you are building something from nothing or Unreal, C++. If you use XNA for XBoxLive, C#.

With so many tools / engine already built to handle the audio in a game, unless you are working for a company that has the workforce to build that kind of customization into an engine or you are just some self-proclaimed genius(or an actual genius), it's moot to consider C++, especially considering the type of job you are after. More than likely, with your field of specialty they will expect knowledge of prebuilt tools and probably some amount of C# in extreme cases. Most likely though you will at most be required to know the inner workings of FMOD or WWise.
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Polly
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« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2015, 12:49:06 PM »

@ZackParrish - Indie / small studios that use middleware such as Unity generally don't have ( full-time ) Audio Programmer positions.

... Unity does though ( excellent C/C++ programming skills required ).
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ZackParrish
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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2015, 02:47:14 PM »

@ZackParrish - Indie / small studios that use middleware such as Unity generally don't have ( full-time ) Audio Programmer positions.

... Unity does though ( excellent C/C++ programming skills required ).

Yes, that's for someone that's developing part of the core engine. Which is completely off the point of what I was trying to make. The OP doesn't need to know that kind of stuff unless he's deeply interested in that sort of thing, and considering how much time it usually takes to be a composer/sound designer, it seems pretty unlikely he'll want to invest that kind of time into learning a language like C++. At most he'll only need to know FMOD and WWise, and in extreme cases C#, and that's strictly speaking for the type of jobs he'd actually want to apply for. I can't imagine why he'd want to go after the audio programmer stuff since it goes off the rails of what he went to college for.
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Gargoyle440
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« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2015, 05:07:24 PM »

Hot damn this blew up.  Tons of great information, thanks everyone!

So it really does look like it's 95% coding (specifically in C++ and C#) and about 5% "Hey I know what a Piano looks like," which is honestly kind of what I got from looking around on the internet.

Having said that...

Basically there's no reason to not become a Wwise/Fmod ninja, that's where the industry's going.
I've seen it around and naturally it looks mandatory for anyone in an indie position (i.e. on a team, not just freelance), but it looks like Fmod and Wwise are also pretty much expected at the AAA level as well (for Sound Designers at the very least).
Have any of you seen any instances where someone from an explicitly musical background has had to break out PD (https://puredata.info/) or something that intensive in an indie position?
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ZackParrish
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« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2015, 06:22:25 PM »

I've written music for several indie projects and done sound design on a few and that's the first time I've heard of PD...
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Barendhoff
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« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2015, 04:10:07 AM »

I may have misunderstood your question, Gargoyle. Given your background in composition I figured you'd want to know to what extent you have to be able to code your music (or sound design) into the game. From that perspective, 95% coding and 5% musical stuff seems very off. If you really want to get in audio programming subjects such as listed in EA's ad ("direct sound, sound file formats, data streaming, data compression, and MP3 handling"), that's something different altogether, although FMOD can handle a great deal of that.

Now, I'm not nearly as experienced as the others who have posted above. A year ago I hadn't landed any game music gigs yet. So perhaps our situations are slightly comparable. In my case, learning middleware really helped to get that first job. As an indie team with neither audio designers or audio programmers, getting someone in who knew how to work with FMOD made for a great addition to the team. Not only did it make for efficient implementation, it also drastically improved the quality level of the game's audio.

With the arrival of musician-friendly middleware, it's become much more feasible for someone with a background in purely music and/or sound design to implement audio without requiring thorough understanding of programming languages. Myself, I know little to none and can't write a basic set of code--but I do know my way around FMOD and the visual programming approach in Unreal Engine. It's allowed me to implement 90% of the audio of the Unreal Engine project I'm currently involved with, including complicated music and sound events with transition zones and various parameter functionalities connected to varieties in in-game situations.

The tools you work with change the product you create. Using middleware can really alter the way you write music once you get the hang of transitions and parameters. For sound design, using middleware seems almost mandatory if you want to avoid monotony and aim to achieve a realistic sound in a resource-efficient way--especially if you're not savvy in programming.

The team I work with consists of 10 people at most. They don't have the resources (nor the need) to get another audio guy on the team in order to split the audio programmer and audio designer jobs. So the roles are merged: the designer also programs. So far, that's mostly concerned implementation and bank management. In larger teams it makes more sense to divide the tasks among specialists, so the designer creates the sound and the programmer implements it and makes sure streaming, compression and mixing routes are managed properly. I remember raising a brow when I saw a audio programmer in Ori and the Blind Forest's credits. It makes sense to have a dedicated audio programmer in large teams and projects, but I just hadn't seen that in credits before.

Long story short: I haven't the extensive background yet to provide a solid, undoubtful analysis of what's expected of you as an audio programmer and/or audio designer. From what experience I have, I'd say that while high quality composition will always be valuable, skills in middleware make for a big plus and skills in implementation form another much desired ability. Especially in small indie teams where resources and manpower are limited, being able to do audio from production to implementation can be highly valuable.

This summer, we've had a thread about FMOD and Wwise (here). Perhaps you'll find something useful in there. I'm not sure to what extent Wwise is used on an indie level; it's definitely used in AAA projects. Assassin's Creed Black Flag composer Olivier Deriviere spoke about it at a conference last year (read more about what he talked about here). FMOD has flexible license fees and is used in both low-budget indie games and AAA games such as World of Warcraft and Forza.
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Audiosprite
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« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2015, 01:14:44 PM »

Hot damn this blew up.  Tons of great information, thanks everyone!

So it really does look like it's 95% coding (specifically in C++ and C#) and about 5% "Hey I know what a Piano looks like," which is honestly kind of what I got from looking around on the internet.

Having said that...

Basically there's no reason to not become a Wwise/Fmod ninja, that's where the industry's going.
I've seen it around and naturally it looks mandatory for anyone in an indie position (i.e. on a team, not just freelance), but it looks like Fmod and Wwise are also pretty much expected at the AAA level as well (for Sound Designers at the very least).
Have any of you seen any instances where someone from an explicitly musical background has had to break out PD (https://puredata.info/) or something that intensive in an indie position?

I've written music for several indie projects and done sound design on a few and that's the first time I've heard of PD...

I chatted with a gameaudio vet last week for a while about interactive music programs and he mentioned PD. Basically it's much more involved than Wwise/Fmod, and the reason you'd use it is if you want to do more procedural/generative audio than what those programs could do. Wwmod is for the logic of calling samples, but PD gives you access to the composition within the code.

Seems cool, but also like it's for very specific projects that are heavily based around the audio
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Michael Klier
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« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2015, 12:05:21 AM »

Have any of you seen any instances where someone from an explicitly musical background has had to break out PD (https://puredata.info/) or something that intensive in an indie position?


If you know PD (or Max/MSP) well it's a nice tool to quickly prototype audio behaviours before implementing them.

There are also a couple of Indie Games that used PD as their "audio engine" like "Fract OSC" [1]. A couple of devs here in Munich used it for "Astroslugs" [4] which AFAIK didn't actually involve any procedural audio generation with Unity3D using libpd [2] and Kalimba [3].

The "Heavy" Project by enzienaudio [5] lets you create Wwise Plugins from Pure Data Patches. I haven't played with that yet but I find it very intriguing. Combing procedural sound generation with a powerful tool like Wwise has so much potential Smiley.

[1] http://fractgame.com/
[2] https://github.com/hagish/kalimba
[3] https://github.com/patricksebastien/libpd4unity
[4] http://www.astroslugs.de
[5] https://enzienaudio.com/
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