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[absolute8]

Hi Guys,

Absolute_8 here.
It has come to my attention that there are subject matters in which expression or statement inevitably lead towards conflict. This conflict, like any conflict, exists as a monument representing our need for further understanding and knowledge about the subject matter at hand. Regarding matters relevant to human experience and views, the sharing of perspectives and minds is a must.

The discussion in this posts regards the unavoidable -- the inescapable -- the ever present subject of sexuality in creative media (in this case, games  )

Sexuality in games is a huge elephant in the room 'round these parts -- a subject loaded with many reasonable examples supporting valid aversions to depictions of sexuality, especially in regard to the male gaze of females subjects.

Feminists have a valid argument when misogyny and indignity embarrassingly litter the fantastic landscapes and stories of our pixelatted imaginary projections, but where is the line of good sexy fun drawn? What are the ethics that artist must employ?

Alright, yous guys, let's have it. 

[gimymblert]

There is a pretty number of sex positive feminist women, especially in game, who do appreciate some funny stuff, but they also recognize that it's a problem when it's overwhelmingly the representation in game and do affect how they are perceive and foster a climate of toxic behavior against them.

I would say nobody benefit from such a climate, so the stance is to stay away until there is enough balance that it is benign, it's not benign as of right now.

It's less about being the drawing right now, that fostering a welcoming community for all the minority under constant pressure and attack those stuff participate in even if it unknowingly. The small stuff do add up when you are on the receiving side.

We will discuss a fine line if those target are achieve first.

[Schoq]

I just really want to play voluptuous woman dressed for a party nonchalantly bouncing/strolling through mushroom kingdom all "*sigh* ok jumping on these platforms. whatever ugh gotta bounce on these bullets to cross this gap I guess, fuck"

[ProgramGamer]

Ok, so first off, I'm going to paraphrase something that Lauren Faust recently said during a livestream for "Them's fighting herds". She was asked why she designed mostly female characters, and her response was that she would be willing to design and equal quantity of male and female characters, but since, in her opinion, most characters are already male, she tries to make characters female in order to give them more recognition, which is mostly what I'm trying to do as well despite the fact that I'm a guy.

However, I don't often make sexual-looking characters (almost never in fact) because I'm simply not the kind of person who desires sexuality out of popular media. And as a consumer, I don't look for it either.

This being the context, I feel like in order for something to be sexy to the point of being sexist, there must be some criteria. First, all or most of your female characters must look excessively sexy compared to the rest of the cast. If only a few of your characters are sexy within reason and it's well explained in the fiction of your game why that is, I feel like that's fine.

Another thing is that if you have a disproportionate amount of one gender in your cast, then you're probably being a little sexist, though in a more subtle way.

Finally, It's worth mentioning that if your game features both overly sexy females AND males, then it's not technically being sexist, but I haven't seen an example of this anywhere so It's not as relevant as the other points.

And that's my two cents. Feel free to take this apart and maybe enlighten me on some aspects of this I might have missed.

[Dragonmaw]

as long as you are honest about your desire to look at a tity or balsac i don't think anybody is going to care

[Nillo]

Finally, It's worth mentioning that if your game features both overly sexy females AND males, then it's not technically being sexist, but I haven't seen an example of this anywhere so It's not as relevant as the other points.

[Nillo]

I get annoyed by sexual depictions of women in games occasionally (I remember quitting the card game in Suikoden V because it forced me to stare at Jeane's tits) but that's probably because I am not attracted to women to begin with. I accept that people like me are in the minority and that they're appealing to a large demographic by including that type of content, and it usually doesn't detract from my experience to see some sexualized women in games who I have zero interest in, only when it's especially blatant (put some god-damn clothes on, Jeane).

Ultimately I think it's fine to have some sexy women, sexy men and pugs in games. Sex is a healthy part of life and we should encourage people to have sexytime instead of killing each other.

[Dacke]

for something to be [...] sexist [...] all or most of your female characters must look excessively sexy

Nah, that's not how it works at all. Your thinking seems to be pretty black and white, that either the entire work is "bad" (sexist) or "good" (not sexist). But it's completely possible to have a single bad/sexist/objectifying/racist/homophobic/etc. characterization or joke in a game. That it also has good writing doesn't excuse that "bad" element, but including a "bad" thing doesn't necessarily ruin the entire work either. This is something that Feminist Frequency keeps reminding us of:

it is both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it’s more problematic or pernicious aspects

if your game features both overly sexy females AND males, then it's not technically being sexist

I have to disagree here, as well. Context is everything. Given the predominance of objectification of women there is a clear difference between showing men and women with similar levels of sexualization. It's a matter of privilege, representation and context.

There is also a big difference in how men and women are presented in "sexy ways", with men often being shown as sexy power fantasies (muscles/powerful poses) while women are often shown more as as objects (broken spines and "pouty" poses).



So there's no guarantee that you can escape sexism by simply attempting equal objectification.

I just stumbled upon this dialog between a male artist and a critical thinking teacher (who also happens to be his mom), with the artist struggling to understand the nuances involved. I found it to be a pretty nice entry-level explanation of some of these issues, since it's written from the confused male artist's perspective with him asking lots of questions and not hiding his confusion/misconceptions (that lots of people seem to share)
http://www.davegutteridge.com/sexyism

I also think it's worth repeating what Jimym said, many/most feminists are sex-positive and love depictions of sex and sexuality. Being against objectification does in no way mean you're against sex or sexiness.

[Superb Joe]

i'll come right out and say it, i'm not ashamed: solid snake has a sexy ass

[gimymblert]

Also it is perfectly possible to be sexy without going over the line of creepy. Also women can feel sexy without being sexualized. If you can understand those perspective you can be fun and sexy and keep women happy! If you also understand clothes and hairstyle beyond the cliche and caricature you will get so much point!

Also sexy men for women is not the same as sexualized men, a men can be sexualized without being appealing to anyone, gay sexualization is also different than women sexualization of men, women themselves have different preference. Iron man actor, captain america actor, twilight men, sephiroth and cloud are all different type of sexiness. Understand the female gaze and your sexiness will win so much point.

Society don't treat the male gaze the same way, a low cut or exposed chest is not frown upon nor men shame for it, but yes girl do like well endowed chest as much as men (I know I always have off hand comment about my chest, ie they are not developed), in fact women like to touch them as much as men do, but it's more accepted to touch a male chest since society says it's neutral (and it's the most direct signal of a women lust).

But just because you haven't sexualized the women body and clothe her decently don't mean she isn't sexualized, if she is represented as uniquely an extension of the male affection or consumption (mom, virgin, love interest, whore), it's equally problematic.

[Mittens]

A good simple guide I've heard before is this;
"Every time you make a choice about a female character, ask yourself, would I make this exact same choice to a male character?"

But still, even following this, I still often have doubts that my female characters look like something chicks would actually desire to play as, and even if you ask for feedback there, people are likely not to give a strait answer to avoid hurting your feelings.

So yeah, maybe post the specific sexualizations you are wanting to employ and have the anonymous internet criticize you for objectivity.

[gimymblert]

Also there isn't enough straight male exploring male sexualization and sexyness ... I mean that aren't asian ...

[s0]

i was about make a big post but gimmy has already pretty much made all the points i wanted to make.

i think in the end, female characters in games are almost always written and designed to pander to a straight male audience. most games pander to straight men in myriad other ways ofc, but their handling of women characters is where it's most obvious. i mean developers of "core games" aren't *wrong* in thinking that mostly straight men will play their games, but at some point it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. if you spend decades sending women the not-so-subtle message that your games "are for boys", it's not surprising that most women will feel like they don't belong and not bother with your games.

[MeshGearFox]

I like looking at penises and I would enjore having more of them in games to look at.

[gimymblert]

gta5

[Schoq]

you'll have to settle for obvious phallic representations like big swords and guns

[Pfotegeist]

cuteness is a good line. If you go past that then eh. copy a soap opera. if you want to make it look like something's going to happen

if you make it look like something will happen

something did happen

come around here often? fade to black

[absolute8]

Holy crap, all teh senior members showed up for this discussion while I was away. I wonder if Derek will chime in since his damsels were mentioned.

I'll add my two cents in a minute. Gotta make foods.

[ProgramGamer]

for something to be [...] sexist [...] all or most of your female characters must look excessively sexy

This being the context, I feel like in order for something to be sexy to the point of being sexist, there must be some criteria. First, all or most of your female characters must look excessively sexy compared to the rest of the cast. If only a few of your characters are sexy within reason and it's well explained in the fiction of your game why that is, I feel like that's fine.

I don't like this paraphrase, it kind of ignores a good portion of my argument and feels like you're playing with my words. 

[MeshGearFox]

dicks are weird
they're like
boneless leg fingers
that turn into children