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[Diabetes Forecast]

as long as you are honest about your desire to look at a tity or balsac i don't think anybody is going to care

The only answer that matters.

[starsrift]

Kinda echoing what Maw said, yeah. If you want to deliberately make it sexy, own up to it. You don't have to bullshit up a reason (breathes through her skin?), just do it and be proud.

If you can't be proud of what you're doing, then you've probably crossed the line. IMHO there's nothing wrong with sexy games and sexy characters, men or women. Only consider your target audience, and whether or not this is something you'd be happy to expand on to someone who might ask.

[s0]

quiet would be a shit character even without the flimsy excuse lol. esp seeing as she's the only prominent female character in the entire game. ouch.

DISCLAIMER: i love mgsv and played it for hours on end.

[Pfotegeist]

Here's some obvious stuff, maybe everyone here already knew it.

Comic book heroes always looked naked with painted skin and impossible anatomy. There's no difference from the art of the 1st century from today misrepresenting human bodies.

Body modification is available in many forms. Rhinoplasty, breast implants, tattoo parlors, among other jobs exist and the professionals make a lot of money.  The individuals who want to be modified believe it's expression, choice, empowerment.

Artists have always been given free reign to sculpt and draw the human form, even in uptight religious society.

Celebrities are constantly glamorized, but I can't think of one who hasn't had his/her face altered for camera friendly perfection.

what's new?
all these things to be cast in a negative light will mean throwing away years of history, oppressing people who wish to express themselves with their body, and the future. There is something new, I'm getting to it.


now that's all covered


I want to point out that magazines sell to women with pictures of attractive female figures and attractive celebrity smiles. There is a difference between that sexuality and motion picture sexuality, the magazine models don't move.  They may be doctored, and decorated in body, and then the image gets airbrushed, but they didn't move. So where does one end up if they feel self-loathing while viewing beautiful models?

Deeper down in the uncanny valley, that is where. Having the images move would force the viewer to experience a level of negative self-worth much worse.

So, there, the limitless power of art is capable of hurting.

Western civilization is still prudish.

... Is prudishness fun?

[Dacke]

I don't like this paraphrase, it kind of ignores a good portion of my argument and feels like you're playing with my words.  

Sorry. My intention was to address that specific idea in your post, not pretend that it was your entire argument. I'm interested exploring ideas, not proving you wrong. If you felt I was being unfair, then it was unfair. My bad.

...

as long as you are honest about your desire to look at a tity or balsac i don't think anybody is going to care

Kinda echoing what Maw said, yeah. If you want to deliberately make it sexy, own up to it. You don't have to bullshit up a reason (breathes through her skin?), just do it and be proud.

If you can't be proud of what you're doing, then you've probably crossed the line. IMHO there's nothing wrong with sexy games and sexy characters, men or women. Only consider your target audience, and whether or not this is something you'd be happy to expand on to someone who might ask.

This doesn't really make sense to me. What matters is if it's sexist or not, right?

I agree with the idea that if you're honest about your intentions you're more likely to get a better result, but I can't see how it would guarantee anything.

To give an extreme example: if your target audience is a bunch of MRAs, I'm sure you can come up with something that's in line with your intentions and their expectations, while being horribly sexist at the same time.

[Pfotegeist]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism
the definition is sexist.

[starsrift]

Kinda echoing what Maw said, yeah. If you want to deliberately make it sexy, own up to it. You don't have to bullshit up a reason (breathes through her skin?), just do it and be proud.

If you can't be proud of what you're doing, then you've probably crossed the line. IMHO there's nothing wrong with sexy games and sexy characters, men or women. Only consider your target audience, and whether or not this is something you'd be happy to expand on to someone who might ask.

This doesn't really make sense to me. What matters is if it's sexist or not, right?

I agree with the idea that if you're honest about your intentions you're more likely to get a better result, but I can't see how it would guarantee anything.

To give an extreme example: if your target audience is a bunch of MRAs, I'm sure you can come up with something that's in line with your intentions and their expectations, while being horribly sexist at the same time.

I'm not speaking for Maw, for certain. But IMHO, it's okay to have a sexist game. If you want to target MRA's, fine, do it. But if that embarasses you as a creator - it certainly would, me - then don't do it. If you can't do it honestly, don't try. For instance, I don't think there's anything wrong with Leisure Suit Larry. Not my cup of tea personally, since I prefer dudes, but it's a game that I'm comfortable with having exist.
Feminists like Sarkeesian, et al, don't have a problem with a male-oriented game, they have a problem with a male-oriented industry. A sexist game isn't, on its own, a problem. There's enough room to make a game for any market you'd like to focus on or pander to. Problems do occur when everyone targets that market and kind of subtly hides it and makes excuses for doing so while 'publically' suggesting they're not, and that's sexist.

/ and it's not like LSL doesn't have value for the non-het male, either. I've known straight chicks who've enjoyed it for the raunchy humour, but that's veering wildly OT.

[Superb Joe]

i want to see dicks and asses and other stuff like that when i'm stomping goombas and pounding koopas into dust with my large, powerful italian ass

[ProgramGamer]

@Dacke It's fine, it's just that I was reading your post and was like "wait, I didn't write it like that...". And for the record, I'm fine with having my ideas set straight, so thanks for replying, even if I didn't initially react very positively.

[MeshGearFox]

fwiw i think the sexy characters that actual resonate with people are the ones that aren't waifish, coquettish damsels. Like, Lara Croft is kind of the ur sexy video game character, and yeah she got da boobs, but she's also basically batman -- rich, spends her time hanging around in caves, badass ninja skills, fights dinosaurs, etc.

objectified sexy characters that are nothing but objects don't really resonate cause they ain't characters.

although fwiw i prefer video games about literal objects, such as spaceship games and box games.

[Dacke]

@starsrift: I'm trying to understand your point of view. Sorry if this question comes of as provocative, but that's not my intention. I just want to ask it to understand what you're saying.

You said it's "okay to have a sexist game". Do you also think it's "okay to have a racist game", or is that different. If so, in what way?

[Schoq]

Like, Lara Croft is kind of the ur sexy video game character, and yeah she got da boobs, but she's also basically batman -- rich, spends her time hanging around in caves, badass ninja skills, fights dinosaurs, etc.

batman? she's very clearly indiana jones + scrooge mcduck

[MeshGearFox]

batman? she's very clearly indiana jones + scrooge mcduck

Batman is pretty much indiana jones + scrooge mcduck. I mean he's a bat instead of a duck, but birds is birds.

[battlerager]

You said it's "okay to have a sexist game". Do you also think it's "okay to have a racist game", or is that different. If so, in what way?

To me it sounds relativistic. Like, if you are okay with being seen as sexist or racist or whateverist, make a game that is. It's not forbidden (can vary based on intensity and location) and won't kill you (unless you piss people off enough). In the end, no one can stop you and if this makes you happy in your limited time on this earth, go for it. You have to live with the consequences though.

Sorry if this seems like putting words into starsrift's mouth. Was just my take on it. And fwiw, this is not how I see it, but I can understand this viewpoint.

[gimymblert]

yeah make thing but it won't stop people voicing their first amendment right to say it's problematic.

[Dacke]

Well, if you're a racist/sexist, then obviously you're fine with making racist/sexist things. I don't think that's what we're discussing?

[starsrift]

@starsrift: I'm trying to understand your point of view. Sorry if this question comes of as provocative, but that's not my intention. I just want to ask it to understand what you're saying.

You said it's "okay to have a sexist game". Do you also think it's "okay to have a racist game", or is that different. If so, in what way?

I'm not sure what the positive value of a racist game would be. All I'm saying is that titillation is fine, if that's what you're going for and you can do it with shamelessly deliberate intent. The fact that such objectification is generally sexist is a side effect, not an intended result.

[Dacke]

Ah. I think I figured out where we disagree. I don't think that there's any need for sexy/erotic/titillating stuff to be sexist. But if it's sexist, I find it problematic.

[gimymblert]

There is also place for titillation, I'm not sure a forum with an ambition to welcome all peoples is the place for it.

[s0]

Like, Lara Croft is kind of the ur sexy video game character, and yeah she got da boobs, but she's also basically batman -- rich, spends her time hanging around in caves, badass ninja skills, fights dinosaurs, etc.

batman? she's very clearly indiana jones + scrooge mcduck

scrooge mcduck is only depicted like this in the ducktales cartoon btw. in the donald duck comics WHICH WERE MY FAVORITE COMICS AS A KID he is mostly just an asshole capitalist.