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[starsrift]

Gotta admit, I'm not down with this idea of "let's visually sexualize men so we can treat BOTH genders like shit". Objectification shouldn't be a goal for anyone but a pornographer, I think.

[ProgramGamer]

I don't think the point is to make men feel like shit, I think the point is to also provide sexuality to both genders so that no one feels left out. Though, less media depicting women in overly sexualized situations needs to be made as well for this to be effective.

[gimymblert]

If that is the case then why would businesses continue to do it? Since I'm not experienced in business I trust that people with way more money and experience than me know more.

Because you assume business is rational, it's not, the whole indie movement wasn't rational either, it turn out a success and then an evidence. The whole casual movement is bigger than hardcore game, how does hardcore game continue? THQ was destroyed when it shift from its family friendly to mature audience. I dunno, I showed you people who makes money, I show you the hit maker are embracing diversity and you say you don't trust the data, BLOPS has introduce women and minority and sold more than lollipop chainsaw, game don't sell on vita but assassin's creed liberation sold enough to have the character as a dlc in other assassin's creed and a stand alone remake on pc, there is like half a hundred example like that. Business is not rational, people like to throw money out to satisfy their ego, because business is not about money, it's about the aspiration of who get the money, their ego.

[Pfotegeist]

I've had the idea for a while that a story about people in dynamic relations would add enjoyment in a game (my game). One of the more interesting women I plan to write about goes to work full-time and brings home friends. At this point I'm just trying to make the game playable, and meet my own expectations for artistic quality. I'm curious if this woman would be put to shame at all and maybe I could portray her so it is obvious she really enjoys getting along with everyone despite a few subtle character flaws.

So far from the thread I know what not to bother working on. We haven't really tackled upbringing and environmental factors that would support a positive sexuality, which the game would have to convey to someone who is primed to recognize negative objectification. I can do my own homework, I'm just making a suggestion.

Thanks I think this topic has been really helpful due to contributors.

[starsrift]

I don't think the point is to make men feel like shit, I think the point is to also provide sexuality to both genders so that no one feels left out. Though, less media depicting women in overly sexualized situations needs to be made as well for this to be effective.

True.

Probably also good to note that there's differences between attraction, fanservice, pandering, and marketing.
I could stand more Chris Hemsworth fanservice in my life. Maybe even some pandering. But if you marketed Hemsworth to me, I'd turn right off.

[Pfotegeist]

In the U.S. political lobbying is continuously attempting to suppress knowledge about sexuality. As mentioned here: ref 1

The political focus abstinence-only sexuality education has greatly impacted the nature and scope of information and services available to youth. This focus on abstinence-only until marriage however, contradicts the beliefs of the majority of Americans who favor comprehensive sexuality education that includes abstinence as well as information on contraception, pregnancy prevention, STDs, and HIV/AIDS (Advocates for Youth & SIECUS, 1999).

Yet it's intrinsically important in our entertainment

More than half (56 percent) of all television shows contain sexual content?averaging more than three scenes with sex per hour. For shows with sexual content, just 9 percent include any mention of the possible risks of sexual activity, or any reference to contraception, protection, or safer sex (Kaiser Family Foundation, 1999).

 
Culture has a strong influence towards sexuality. So, for example, a heavy focus on sexism now (Nov. 2015)  opens a window towards critical new media attitude towards media from even a few years ago.

How this may all condense into a clusterfuck of distorted moral guidelines in Western society is beyond the scope of games, considering it's over 50% of television shows, and reruns aren't dying out. Only freedom of expression will keep the dialogue going so we may have a positive or a negative influence.
 
Sexuality is our identity, our expression, and our culture .. Given the complexity I wouldn't expect any one portrayal to meet every single fantasy.

Partial quote.
source: ref. 2

sexuality defined by WHO (World Health Organization) is
   sex [gender]
   gender identity
   sexual orientation
   eroticism
   pleasure
   intimacy and reproduction.
   
Sexuality is experienced and expressed in
   thoughts
   fantasies
   desires
   beliefs
   attitudes
   values
   behaviours
   practices
   roles and relationships
   
Sexuality is influenced by a number of factors interacting with each other. These factors include:

    biological
    psychological
    social
    economic
    political
    cultural
    ethical
    legal
    historical
    religious
    spiritual

There is a potential to create an understanding how sexuality is a basic need, a human right. Partial quote.
source: ref 3

Sexual health is a state of physical, emotional, mental and social well-being relating to sexuality. It's not merely the absence of disease, dysfunction or infirmity.

...

The sexual rights concept means a person has the right, free of coercion, discrimination and violence, to:

    the highest attainable standard of sexual health, including access to sexual and reproductive health care services
    seek, get and give out information related to sexuality
    sexuality education
    gain respect for their body
    choose their partner
    decide to be sexually active or not
    enter into consensual sexual relations
    enter into consensual marriage
    decide whether or not, and when, to have children
    pursue a satisfying, safe and pleasurable sexual life.

Sexual rights would lay a foundation for a healthy attitude towards sexuality. It is possible in many video game scenarios, the lack of interest in the persuing this goal in mature-oriented games is baffling but almost definitely a sign of poor relationships prominent in the higher-up parts of the industry. (no way?)

A former employee speaks about sexism and hostility in the industry
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1138967

This speaks volumes about education and health and the endangerment of our own future for a few cheap thrills.

A game exploring sexuality in a positive way would have to involve professional attitudes towards sexual rights. I repeat, some of the higher-up parts of the industry need to stop violating sexual rights. A message to inform the players about sexual rights would have to be unbiased.

It is too common for games to focus on experiences and expressions, and even worse titillating the violation of sexual rights. They highlight the dangers as a potential course of action without addressing the existence of positive relationships. Yeah, there it is again, endangerment of our future for a few cheap thrills.


How would the portrayal of a character's sexuality affect me as a player? If it directly represented my culture? If it were represented by another culture's point of view?
Can I ever fathom something so complicated as a society which has diverse ethnicity, and therefor diverse sexuality?
How would an imaginary culture's sexuality be realized, when my own culture is grounded by so many influential factors?

I think we must ask ourselves these questions in order to avoid agreeing to any bias we have. I know I will.

Ok that's my research today.

To produce a game that explores sexuality I would start by laying that foundation of sexual rights. The culture would need to be briefed to the player before they witness its influence on sexuality. Cultural diversity would suggest some variance if a population were diverse. Personal diversity demands variance. A person's sexuality may be inferred through so many ways other than appearance, see second quotation. A person's sexuality is their choice and can't always be predicted, even when observed.

I have some ideas now.


ref:
1 http://www.naswdc.org/practice/adolescent_health/ah0202.asp
2 http://modules.cancerlearning.gov.au/psgc/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12&Itemid=22
3 http://modules.cancerlearning.gov.au/psgc/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13&Itemid=21

[absolute8]

Pfotegeist thank you for your research and your awesome post! 

Tigsource just may become the crucible for greater consciousness and change if we keep this up, guys!

[absolute8]

Ok, I drafted the following as an attempt at a concise, understandable guide to understanding sexism in regards to creative portrayal. This is an attempt at the institution of practical guidelines to understanding and avoiding willing or unwilling portrayal of sexism.

If we are in well enough agreement on the following, I will open a separate thread in which we can post and classify examples for reference.

Here goes:

Subject 1 – SEXISM:

Sexism is discrimination, prejudice, or stereotyping on the basis of gender.
Sexism is most often expressed toward girls and women but not definitively restricted to them.

The following 10 sexist portrayals are dangerous:

1. Portrayals as property (negative objectification in which will and bodily autonomy are violated. The subject is treated as a tool,bargaining chip, currency or trophy on the basis of gender)

2. Portrayals supporting harmful gender based stereotypes.

3. Portrayals of violence justified on the basis of gender.

4. Portrayals which promote sexual indulgence by necessity rather than by consent of individual(s) on the basis of the individual(s) gender .

5. Portrayals in respect to doctrine, philosophy or beliefs that promote degradation, marginalization, or abuse towards subject(s) on the basis of gender (misogyny, misandry, etc)

6. Portrayals that point towards gender as the reason for failure, deficiency, incompetence or negative potential.

7. Portrayals that promote any modern, personal or historical prejudices on the basis of gender.

8. Portrayals that promote pseudo-scientific / intellectual excuse for discrimination on the basis of gender.

9. Portrayals that promote distinctions of inherent inferiority/superiority on the basis of gender.

10. Portrayals in respect to gender based discriminatory practices

[gimymblert]

If that is the case then why would businesses continue to do it? Since I'm not experienced in business I trust that people with way more money and experience than me know more.

Because you assume business is rational, it's not, the whole indie movement wasn't rational either, it turn out a success and then an evidence. The whole casual movement is bigger than hardcore game, how does hardcore game continue? THQ was destroyed when it shift from its family friendly to mature audience. I dunno, I showed you people who makes money, I show you the hit maker are embracing diversity and you say you don't trust the data, BLOPS has introduce women and minority and sold more than lollipop chainsaw, game don't sell on vita but assassin's creed liberation sold enough to have the character as a dlc in other assassin's creed and a stand alone remake on pc, there is like half a hundred example like that. Business is not rational, people like to throw money out to satisfy their ego, because business is not about money, it's about the aspiration of who get the money, their ego.

http://mic.com/articles/127095/here-s-exactly-how-much-movies-about-women-make-at-the-box-office-versus-movies-about-men

[absolute8]

That's not to sound like a cynic, I'm simply saying that I don't get bothered by how the majority of things are average, because that's how averages work.

Girls the tv series was with an average woman and did work very well...

Define average 

[absolute8]

Ok, I drafted the following as an attempt at a concise, understandable guide to understanding sexism in regards to creative portrayal. This is an attempt at the institution of practical guidelines to understanding and avoiding willing or unwilling portrayal of sexism.

If we are in well enough agreement on the following, I will open a separate thread in which we can post and classify examples for reference.

Here goes:

Subject 1 – SEXISM:

Sexism is discrimination, prejudice, or stereotyping on the basis of gender.
Sexism is most often expressed toward girls and women but not definitively restricted to them.

The following 10 sexist portrayals are dangerous:

1. Portrayals as property (negative objectification in which will and bodily autonomy are violated. The subject is treated as a tool,bargaining chip, currency or trophy on the basis of gender)

2. Portrayals supporting harmful gender based stereotypes.

3. Portrayals of violence justified on the basis of gender.

4. Portrayals which promote sexual indulgence by necessity rather than by consent of individual(s) on the basis of the individual(s) gender .

5. Portrayals in respect to doctrine, philosophy or beliefs that promote degradation, marginalization, or abuse towards subject(s) on the basis of gender (misogyny, misandry, etc)

6. Portrayals that point towards gender as the reason for failure, deficiency, incompetence or negative potential.

7. Portrayals that promote any modern, personal or historical prejudices on the basis of gender.

8. Portrayals that promote pseudo-scientific / intellectual excuse for discrimination on the basis of gender.

9. Portrayals that promote distinctions of inherent inferiority/superiority on the basis of gender.

10. Portrayals in respect to gender based discriminatory practices

Hmmmmm...this discussion sure died down. I'm going to take everyone's silence as affirmation that this is legit. MOVING ON TO PHASE 2  hahahahaah